ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Business Related Discussion Piecework?

I'm gonna get tired of asking, but I'll ask one last time, how are these high end service shops able to turn out quality work while paying their technicians a flat rate for each job?

Everybody is so sure that piecework equates to badwork, but everybody has steered clear of my obvious example of the contrary. No one dares answer the question because it would conflict with their lofty opinions on piecework.

Service and Installation are 2 very different fields. What works with one won't necessarily work with the other.
I wouldn't offer piecework to an employee unless I knew him very well. You're tempting the guy to cut corners to make more money at the risk of your contractors license. Employing him as a subcontractor where he is the one held responsible for anything going wrong ( including OH&S issues) is a far better and safer way of doing it.

it's actually easier on installations than service work. on a larger installation, you (or your chosen foreman) can provide better quality inspections than you can on a guy running 4 service type jobs a day.

opinions are fine and dandy, but when they are not based on facts, but rather fly in the face of them, what good are they. if you can't explain your opinions with a reasonable argument, they are useless.
BTW- iwire actually explained his opinion with the reluctance to take a chance reasoning.

there will always be guys who rush through work - whether hourly or piecework. However, if a guy knows that he will be coming back on his own time to fix the screwups....and if he still screws up, what difference will paying him an hourly rate make. he's still gonna be a screwup. it's just gonna lose you more money quicker.

I understand where iwire is coming from. And if someone is adverse to risk taking, that is fine. I think the whole idea behind RR's questioning is that for every one Iwire, there are 10 nowires- or budget burners- so to speak.

this industry is changing. margins are getting tighter (guys are afraid to actually understand their costs and charge accordingly) material prices are more volitile than they have been in a long time.

But the extra work, coupled with the low margins, leads to a plethora of useless workers.

So, the big question- What is the answer?

is it to pay someone OT because he is slow and screws up on regular time? But you can't fire him because you need the body.

Do you put everyone on piecework and give them incentive?

quote"I'm gonna get tired of asking, but I'll ask one last time, how are these high end service shops able to turn out quality work while paying their technicians a flat rate for each job?"

RR, why don't you just join and find out? It seems like you are heading that way anyway. And good for you. And good for them. I would bet you could easily become the next star of Nextstar.

{Off-topic-deleted}



[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 05-03-2006).]

I disagree. Service work is much more black or white. You either fixed the thing or you didn't. It's fairly easy for the customer to tell whether you did your job properly or not. You could violate a number of codes on installation work without the customer ever knowing.
I think viewing this from a safety compliance aspect gives the best example of the problems involved. An employee on hourly rate has no incentive to skip safety requirements. An employee doing piecework does. And when an accident happens, who is going to be found guilty - the employer!
And yes one answer to this is supervision, but if I have to spend that much time on supervising piecework than that wipes out any advantage of having guys work on piecework in the first place.
I can only see disadvantages to having employees doing piecework rather than using subcontractors.

RR,

It is also anecdotal to say that high-end service shops turn out quality work.
Which ones do & which ones don't.
It all comes down to pride in workmanship, however, I believe that with piecework, thare will be an incentive to rush through a job to get to the next one, with the natural result being poor quality.

It seems that much sarcasm, hyperbole, and fallacious reasoning is being put forth from those who want to convince others that their own opinions are superior to others.

briselec,

I would suggest the opposite...
I don't think most customers would know whether a switch is grounded, polarity is observed, proper fan boxes are installed,
boxes are over filled , OCPDs are sized properly GFCIs & AFCIs are where needed.
Installations usually require inspections where these things are checked.



[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 04-30-2006).]

If a guy cuts corners, you fire him, problem solved. Quality control is the job of the business owner, just like it has always been.

Some of the largest framing contractors in California pay piecework. I posted a link where even IBEW electricians are paid by the piece, I'm a former IBEW journeyman electrician and I doubt those guys cut corners.

Nearly all housing tracts and condo/apartment complexes have workers who are paid by the piece. It's not that novel a concept.

I'm going to take baby steps, approach it cautiously. I'm going to start with finish, trimming out is a repetitious task the lends itself to piecework.

I think the only way it would work is if you paid very close attention to QC and you were willing to fire anyone who violated the code or did work not up to your specifications. The business owner would have to have cut and dry rules about what is acceptable and what is not, example: Backstabbing receptacles. Nobody who works in the service department where I work backstab and theres 8 of us.

The business owner would have to pay a high enough rate to get the quality of work they expected. If I'm going to make less money for doing things in a workmanlike manner or more of a workmanlike manner then of course I'm not going to be happy. If your company is the type where you don't worry about what things look like as long as it meets code I think it would work for you.

I don't think the IBEW using piece work proves anything, I've seen hack work done by IBEW Jman.

I've avoided this thread for awhile because I'm not very familiar with the term piecework. I'm guessing that it's what GCs are referring to when they call & ask for a price per outlet. My typical response is..."Is it a back-to-back outlet, or a sump outlet on a dedicated circuit 50 feet from the panel?".

Typically in this area I'd use the term piecework in new residential construction. I avoid this type of work because there's no profit in it. Usually it's low-bid work at code-minimum less a few required outlets, using back-stabs & cheap materials.

My business is residential service. While I use a price book with listed tasks, I also use my 21 years experience in estimating. While some tasks are repetitive, no two jobs are alike in residential service. The task prices need to be adjusted.

In piecework or contracting the incentive is that if you work faster, you make more money. With T&M if you work slower, you make more money. Honesty & character are the balance. With T&M a good worker will keep the speed up. With contracting a good contractor will use good materials & install with care.

Dave