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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 348
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ITO Offline
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Fair enough...

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]


101° Rx = + /_\
Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,445
Likes: 3
Cat Servant
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First of all, this is a forum for professional adults, and is read by many, over a long period. When I post a reply, I will sometimes be vague, or paint with a braod brush, in order to:
- Keep from going off on a tangent;
- Avoid getting personal;
- Try to cover multiple situations; or,
- Try to steer things in a positive direction.

This thread has seemed to be drifting in a personal direction, and I guarantee that will not be allowed to happen.

A famous engineer - I think he was head engineer at Ford at the time - once stressed the importance of having data. Anyone can have an opinion, he said, but data is what can set your opinion apart from the pack.

Since the advent of NFPA 70E, there have been a multitude of makers claiming their clothing meets various levels of protection from electrical flash. This was neither the first, nor will it be the last, effort in this direction.

Prior to 70E, for example, the US Navy had two types of work clothing. While the two looked absolutely identical, the "fireproof" pieces were of a slightly heavier material, and was 100% cotton; the others had varying amounts of poly content.

Likewise, there were all sorts of clothes designed for wear by welders; again, these were often heavy cotton, with leather in the high-wear areas.

The military & police market led to a wider availability of clothing made on Nomex, Kevlar, and other fire resistant materials. With the ongoing campaign againd terror, there has been a whole new industry making fire resistant / no after-flame / no drip clothing has sprung up.

Usually ASTM D6413 is the means used to define the protection these garments offer.

Phrases that keep appearing in the clothing's literature are "exclusive" and "proprietary blend." The term 'polyester', in it's broadest sense, has been applied to a number of materials that pose little hazard- as well as some with a long history of causing harm.

Let's look at just one manufacturer ( www.skillers.com ), whose clothing is intended for electricians. They use three materials:
-100% cotton;
-40% Poly / 60% cotton; and,
-65% Poly / 25% cotton.

It is worth noting that only the last item has a warning specific to its' use where burns might be an issue.

So, while one might be pedantic, and want to debate in generalities... it appears that there has already been quite a bit of real world experience to establish what poses a risk, and what does not. Your generic 65% poly work clothing has certainly been documented to make injuries far worse than necessary.

As to where the individuals' responsibility lies, again, we can debate until the cows come home. The fact remains, as a matter of law, that (going by the letter of the regulations) not only is the employer required to provide ALL protective equipment, but that ONLY such equipment, provided by the employer, is allowed to be used.

In the broader sense, a lot of things have been used to measure both safety and management. Insurance premiums, employee turnover, accident rates, housekeeping practices... and so on.

Perhaps a personal story of mine can shed some light here. I once worked at a place where two people lost limbs in two months. I left there for a place that had not suffered a lost time accident for four years. No one should be surprised to hear that morale, productivity, and profitability were higher at that second, better managed firm.



[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 12-12-2006).]

Joined: Nov 2006
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ITO Offline
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[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]


101° Rx = + /_\
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 26
G
Member
" should I also provide them with “safe” clothes and boots? Should I make sure they don’t have underwear that chafes? Where does personal responsibility come in?"

While avoiding the other politics of this issue, I just wanted to point out that where employees are responsible for their own clothing and gear, they have the option of ensuring their own comfort and safety beyond the minimum standards -- pointing the finger at the employer, then, is of course petty since responsibility for various tools/equipment is discussed and agreed to as terms of employment.

Where the issue arises is where the article in question is company-provided and REQUIRED, by the company, to be worn, no substitutions. If you REQUIRE your employees to wear COMPANY-LOGO underwear, you should ensure it does not chafe. [Linked Image]

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
L
Member
ITO, I'm all for personal responsibility, I'm not asking for them to buy me anything, I have bought my own FR long sleeve shirt, my jeans or cargo pants that I purchase are never ripped or dirty, I buy the best work boots I can, Ive purchased my own insulated tools, harness ETC.

I can see your point if I was demanding them to buy this stuff for me but I don't understand where personal responsibility comes into play when they are demanding I wear their provided uniform. We do work on 480 and 277, I'm not going to tell you it's a daily or even a weekly thing but we do work on it.

I obviously take my safety seriously, my main problem with the uniforms is I go the extra mile to make sure I am safe and then they are going to demand that I wear what is generally considered unsafe clothing.

I'll even admit to wearing a polyblend on my own once or twice but the thing is it was my choice to do so, I knew where I was working that day and I knew I was going to be doing mickey mouse BS all day.

Maybe I came off like a safety nazi and whiner I can assure you I am not, as I said it's all about choices and it should be my choice If Im going to bend the rules a little, it's totally differant If im ordered to.

Example: Sent to change and outdoor panel that was rotted out, feeds exit and entry gate,CCTV, guard shack at an upscale country club. I pull the meter, we are not supposed to but we all do and it's pretty much expected of us, I have no problem at all with this.

I ended up mangling the meter enclosure badly trying to get it off of the rusted rack and panel so now I have two choices, either call POCO and get butt chewed because we did not call for the meter to be pulled, wait for POCO to show up and its a Friday so the country club would have no gates or security for the weekend or I can replace the enclosure while it's still energized.

I chose choice number two. I wore long sleeve FR shirt, hot gloves, safety glasses and as I said I have my own insulated tools. When asked by supervisor how I replaced the enclosure I just smiled and said "magic" he knows but he cannot condone it so it's left at that.

The whole point is I was not told to do it, supervisor is not that stupid. I felt I could safely complete the task so I did what I felt I had to do to get the job done.

I printed some info out and handed it to the supervisor this morning, told him I'm not trying to rock the boat but I think theres a big mistake being made here with the uniforms and that they are going to spend a bunch of money on uniforms which are unsafe for us to wear and to think about the liability involved in that. He glanced at the stuff I printed out and said it was good stuff to look at and said he'd get it to the VP. I guess we'll see what happens.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline
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Now that the conversation has become so serious - I thought it was a "No-brainer" on poly-blends for our trade, or for that matter a few others...

Now I can also share a story....

Last "Meat-fest", (My annual BBQ on my B-day) yours truely, the rock typing this to you all... started smoking 4 chickens at 4 am in my bathrobe. (Formerly a fleecy blue thing) I went back out to turn them after a while - opened the lid and a huge fire ball rolled up and momentarily engulfed my head!!!! After jumping back and patting my eye-brows and lashes out and gathering a sigh of relief - I then noticed my back was getting warmer, This was a full minute after the initial flash - turned my head just enough to notice that my whole back was on fire! And fire-balls were rushing all around on the fleece of the bathrobe everywhere. Next thing I know I'm in my boxers slamming the BBQ lid on it.

Bottom line - You can't even hang around your house in poly... FYI the chickens were great, smoked for hours after I got dressed for proper cooking.

edit poor typing......

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 12-13-2006).]


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 120
Z
Zog Offline
Member
Some of the comments in this thread scare me, many opionions, little facts. Lets answer the question shall we? Here is a OSHA regulation that has been in existance since 1981.

"1910.269(l)(6)(iii) The employer shall ensure that each employee who is exposed to the hazards of flames or electric arcs does not wear clothing that, when exposed to flames or electric arcs, could increase the extent of injury that would be sustained by the employee.

Note: Clothing made from the following types of fabrics, either alone or in blends,
is prohibited by this paragraph, unless the employer can demonstrate that the fabric has been treated to withstand the conditions that may be encountered or that the clothing is worn in such a manner as to eliminate the hazard involved:acetate, nylon, polyester, rayon."

I could also quote several general requirements on this topic from OSHA that require employers to follow industry standards like the NFPA 70E, the related 70E topics have been covered in this discussion.

In addition the new OSHA standard uses the exact wording from the 70E regarding clothing requirements. It is due out soon, and can be downloaded from www.osha.gov. While you are there, feel free to browse all of the injuries and fines from recent arc flash related accidents involving systhetic blend clothing.


MV/HV Testing Specialist, "BKRMAN"
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 120
Z
Zog Offline
Member
electure,

I have a feeling you are doing the right thing but for the others viewing this please clarify the statement:

"I wear a short sleeve 65%-35% cotton-poly shirt as a regular work shirt.
I have a FR cotton shirt AVAILABLE anytime that I need it, and I wear it when necessary."

You change shirts right? You are not putting your FR shirt over your poly blend shirt, right?


MV/HV Testing Specialist, "BKRMAN"
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
L
LK Offline
Member
"Now, this chap was dressed in a bright yellow suit, wearing an blaze orange vest with reflective stripes on the vest. His ensomble also included leather gloves, a hard hat and safety glasses."

If you read the injury reports of the highway signal workers, you will find the equipment the state is providing is necessary, objects thrown up from the road surface, have removed eyes, opened heads, and caused many life disabling injuries.

Hats off to PennDot



[This message has been edited by LK (edited 12-13-2006).]

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,064
D
Member
Les, how come the road crew were able to wear baseball caps, and short sleeve shirts?
Just the flagman were dressed this way.


A guy told me today, insurance companies give you a break on your premiums if you require and mandate protection.
Some of you guys in the big shops should be able to verify if this is true, I have no idea.

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