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Joined: Dec 2000
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ITO,
You must be a joy to work for.

It sounds like both your employees and you are uninformed (not a typo for uniformed).
The difference is that you are the one responsible for their safety training, and providing them with a safe working environment.

A whole crew can quit right in the middle of a job because of a safety issue, file for unemployment, and file complaints with OSHA. Where would that leave you? With an unfinished job, no help, OSHA visiting you, while the un-employees you're paying for are driving by laughing at you.
This is still a better case scenario than if somebody gets hurt.

The next time they whine for a safe ladder you should listen.
If you aren't worried about them, then at least worry about yourself.

Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools
Joined: Nov 2000
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I think that any company that provides their electricians with clothing made of fabrics that can melt would have a very serious liability risk if one would be hurt by the molten fabric.
don


Don(resqcapt19)
Joined: Nov 2006
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ITO Offline
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You have completely misinterpreted my comments, and spun them quite nicely.

Safety is never an issue and no one is asked to work in a non-safe environment, so you can un-bunch your PC panties. This is construction no one is fun to work for, and we hire, fire, and layoff so many men that my un-employment premiums are maxed out. I have never asked anyone to do anything that I would not do myself, and have even asked them to NOT do things I don’t feel is safe.

This is not about ladders, cords, lifts, hardhats, or trench safety. I listen to legitimate concerns, but when it gets petty I stop listening.

Caveat, if you are working hot hv gear or are any near medium voltage then yeah you need the right clothes, but otherwise it just comes across as petty.


Quote
I think that any company that provides their electricians with clothing made of fabrics that can melt would have a very serious liability risk if one would be hurt by the molten fabric.
don

Yes, you do have a good point. You could also argue that not providing proper clothes could be a liability, or even allowing someone wear improper clothes... or many variations thereof, lawyers are quite clever.

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]


101° Rx = + /_\
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Well now, that was an interesting read.

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Quote
I have never asked anyone to do anything that I would not do myself, and have even asked them to NOT do things I don’t feel is safe.

As a boss you probably do things out of the ordinary, bypassing normal safety measures, just to get the job done. I've done it and seen it done by others all the time.
I've also seen bosses say the employee is whining when they have a legitimate safety concern.


Sixer

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NFPA 70E is titled "Electrical Safety in the Workplace." It is one of the primary references in this subject. OSHA uses it as a "goal post."

This code builds upon what has been well known since the mid-70's: that some work clothes ... primarily cheap company provided uniforms with a high poly content .... pose a real risk of making any heat / flash / fire injury much, much worse.

Now, along with this is the principle that the best PPE is the PPE that you have with you ... and not back at the shop, down on the truck, wherever. Add to this the idea that accidents are seldom anticipated ... they seem to occur when you least expect them ... and the practice of incorporating PPE into your ordinary clothing makes sense.

Do I live in a 'moon suit?' No- but seeing to it that my ordinary clothing at least has a high content of less dangerous fibers seems a reasonable precaution.

Let's face reality; there's not an electrician out there who does not deal with open panels, boxes with live wires, etc. While this may not be "hot work," we all have a very good idea as to the fireworks metal chips, dropped screws, and a slip of the screwdriver might cause.

Don't you think it is reasonable to try to limit the damage that might result? Say, by having cotton shirts?

As a side note, I have had many goals in my career ... but "maxing out my insurance premiuns" has never been one of them! Indeed, since one of the main functions of management is to reduce overhaed expenses, such a situation ought to be a 'wake up call.'

Safety is, first and foremost, a management issue. Tools, equipment, training, procedures will only get you so far; what really makes a difference is the "company culture." Simply put, management has to care, employees have to feel in control, everyone needs to be on the same team. Nothing good can come from a "Lord and Serf" or "Us vs Them" attitude.

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ITO Offline
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Quote
“… provided uniforms with a high poly content…”

Define “high poly content”. No really, define does a 30P/70C count?

Quote
Do I live in a 'moon suit?' No- but seeing to it that my ordinary clothing at least has a high content of less dangerous fibers seems a reasonable precaution.
Define “high content of less dangerous fibers”

I already provide hardhats and work safety glasses, should I also provide them with “safe” clothes and boots? Should I make sure they don’t have underwear that chafes? Where does personal responsibility come in? I know that as an electrician I showed every day, on time, dressed ready for work with my own hand tools. Is that too much to ask of my employees?

(My crew that does medium voltage terminations is provided with shirts and flash suits and anything else they want for that matter.)

Quote
As a side note, I have had many goals in my career ... but "maxing out my insurance premiuns" has never been one of them! Indeed, since one of the main functions of management is to reduce overhaed expenses, such a situation ought to be a 'wake up call.'

There you go taking things completely out of context to somehow make a point that does not exists otherwise. Read this and consider the word I use, “Unemployment Premiums” I did not say “insurance premiums”.

My general liability and bond premiums are some the lowest in town, I have even picked up jobs when we were not the lowest bidder based on my insurance and safety records alone.

One of the pit falls of running bigger crews is that your work is directly connected to the economy. A dip in the economy means less big jobs, which equals a dip in your labor force, which means layoffs and if it happens enough times (or even once) you can max out your “Unemployment Premiums” very quickly. I guess you could just hire short timers work them 89 days, and then rotate in a hole new crew and never pay un-employment, but I don’t believe in reducing my overhead expenses like that no matter what kind of wake up call you imply it maybe.

Quote
Safety is, first and foremost, a management issue. Tools, equipment, training, procedures will only get you so far; what really makes a difference is the "company culture." Simply put, management has to care, employees have to feel in control, everyone needs to be on the same team. Nothing good can come from a "Lord and Serf" or "Us vs Them" attitude.

To some how characterize my view of whining about a poly cotton blend shirt as a “lord and serf” mentality or to imply that it also somehow means that I would ignore legitimate safety issues, is in itself whining and a gross misrepresentation of what I said.

Having said all that this discussion was about whether or not a person who was furnished work shirts had a legitimate safety concern because it was a poly cotton blend. In my opinion no, unless he was doing medium voltage work. Granted 480V could also be an issue but then again 1) we do not work 480V hot and 2) there is a whole class of electrician that never even sees 480V.

Is wearing the new company shirts mandatory?
Do you work 480V hot?

I can see being forces to wear this shirt and work 480V as a problem, are you saying that is what you boss is doing to you?


[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]


101° Rx = + /_\
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What do you call a basement with at least two electricians in it?

A whine celler.

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ITO,

Did you mean to write "Unemployment Insurance" instead of "workers comp insurance"?


Rich
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Situation:

Large project - GC requires each trade to wear the same colored shirt different from the other trades so the GC can identify crews. Company buys blended t's for the crew.

Apprentice is asked to sweep up the main electric room and all dead fronts are on all the panels.

Unknown arc fault ensues and the tee shirt is melted to the apprentices body. More damage is caused by the shirt being melted into his skin than the rest of the arc flash burns............. This guy may never return to work because of it.

Nope, I don't think that company will ever issue a shirt that is not 100% cotton for good reason.

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