ECN Forum Forums Safety Discussion and News Occupational Safety Discussion training for non-electrical personell

ldelee posted that he works in the mining industry, so I think we can safely presume that we're dealing with mining equipment.

So on one hand, it's an industry where lost production can be extremely costly, it may be impractical to get a plant electrician to a dead machine somewhere in a vast series of tunnels (or on a large above-ground site.) Let's also presume that anyone operating mining equipment would tend to be very skilled and highly trained, so we're not talking some teenager whose vocabulary is based on "Y'all want fries with that?" So the machine or process shuts down. What to do?

Again, a lot rides on the abilites and technical background of the machine operator. He may be the best bucket loader (is there such a thing?) operator in the world, but he can't even plug in a table lamp without getting bit. (There are many people like that, too.) So let's have him open up a control panel with 480 volts and start poking around to try to find the tripped overload. What do you think will happen? Even if the person is well-versed in electrical safety and has a fair bit of knowledge, it's still not a good idea. Why?

Consider likely working conditions: hot, humid, lots of hazardous dust, possible fumes, moving machinery which may start unexpectedly, rain if above ground, etc.
Add to that a possibly tired, po'd worker who just wants to get done and go home. Even the best workers can be tired or frustrated.

I stand by my position and would argue it to the death with any company CEO. There has to be a point where safety comes before money!

And to paraphrase someting I've said in this forum in regards to the NEC:

"Just because OSHA doesn't prohibit it doesn't make it safe - or right."

One thing that jumps out at me here is that the voltages that many of us work with the most, which are low (less than 600V) are not the most common in mine situations. Due to the vast areas that mines cover 14.6kV and higher are common. When the High Voltage is run through the same spaces that people work in surely some of the rules that we play by are different.

Direct from: http://www.msha.gov/Alerts/ElectricalSafetyBulletin10072004.pdf .

Just food for thought. Seems to me that MSHA, like OSHA, is serious about proper PPE and safety precautions (as they should be). And along the same vein (haha, mine pun) of mxslick's last line, let's go above any beyond what is required. Everyone's life is worth it.

{Message edited to change coding on link}

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 11-16-2005).]

Yeah as an ex mines bitch i know downtime costs....

u know what costs more.... waiting for the mines inspectors to show up, having the mines coroner on site and trying to get replacement bits from germany coz some bright spark figured they could "hold" the breaker in till the machine cleared the jam.

If it can be reset, only if there is no exposed live wiring, then allow one or maybe two resets a shift before you must call a tradesman, log all resets and note them in the handovers and to maintenance personnel.

I agree with the majority, if you need tools to get to it then it ain't user servicable, and around here (oz) qualified in electrical tends to mean licenced AND competent, and one licence doesn't cover all.

Spock

Spock,
I couldn't have said that any better myself, but try and tell folks that and have it sink in!.

Spock and Trumpy:

Thank you both for weighing in and keeping this thread alive!

The "no-tools" statement says it all. Although it is a big problem in my biz, with know-nothings getting into things they shouldn't, on the other hand it does generate more repair work for me!

Spock, would you like to add to the discussion here:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000239.html

I need to chime in here as I deal with OSHA on a daily basis. There are many situations in which OSHA (or MSHA) states "...only qualified persons..." may perform such and such task. Very few cases do they demand a "certified" or "licensed" individual. This is simply because they leave it up to the employer to determine what it means to be "qualified".

It is usually left to facility management (whatever form that takes where you are) to make this determination. There is a reason for this...those that install, own, upgrade, operate or otherwise use equipment are in the best position to decide what "qualified" means.

There are instances when electricians are necessary and extremely valuable. There are other instances when only a limited amount on training is necessary to "qualify" an individual to perform certain tasks. Part of being "qualified" involves that person recognizing when the task demands someone with more training...again, to be "qualified" means to understand how far they can go.

Likewise, do not assume that an operator is unfamiliar with LOTO. In fact, if the machine LOTO'd is in their area, they BETTER be at least familiar with what it means...even if they're not "qualified" to perform the LOTO.

In our facilities, because of the requirement for operators to perform so many maintenance and adjustment tasks on our equipment, all of them are more than qualified to perform LOTO. At the least, they understand it's function and that they are not to tamper with LOTO'd machines.

You need to decide if your workers are qualified or if they can be trained properly to perform ANY task. It's part of any good Job Hazard Analysis (JHA).

Just MHO...

If you let them reset the overload and it trips again you can almost Guarantee that some genious will think, "Hey if I turn it up it probably won,t trip again". Next shift same happens , next shift motor etc burns and then it hits the fan, then you can never find said genius. Theres always a fiddler lurking or someone with just enough training to be dangerous. If its inside a panel there is a good reason for it. It like authourised access only, If you have to ask if your authorised "your not".

The vast majority of the time when an overload trips, there is a reason for it. I hate getting work orders stating the overload keeps tripping. If they had called for an electrician in the 1st place, the problem could have been taken care of 2 or 3 days before they damaged a piece of equipment and caused even more down time.

Also, in the Great State of Michigan, it is against the law to do electrical work without being properly licensed by the State.