ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Comparitive safety: UK vs. Elsewhere

I remember in France we had normal full earthed 16Amp sockets on the mirrors!

I honestly don't see anything wrong with the IEE attitude. You shouldn't really be drying your hair in the bathroom it's just not a good idea.

And you can use the shaver sockets for radios no problem at all should you need music

All you need is a radio with a euro plug on the end.

djk, dont realy agree with you on that point its OK to have a radio perched on a shelf fed from an adapted socket but not OK to dry your hair with a hair dryer with a moulded socket! Whats that all about then?

Sorry Dave, but I don't see why not. People expect to be able to do this elsewhere in the world. Even in England I know of homes where the solution to having no socket in the bathroom is to run an extension cord from a socket in the hallway.

Wouldn't it be better to have a proper outlet in the bathroom itself?

I have a simple unearthed outlet above the medicine cabinet in my old 1940s apartment. I use it for a night light.

More modern bathrooms are required to have GCFI/RCD outlets.

I just keep electricity away from me and water.

In the words of our "governator"

"Good, you'll live longer."

Aland,

the point is that the socket the radio's plugged into is fed via an isolating transformer and can only supply enough current to opperate an electric shaver or a tooth brush.

It's not just a normal outlet with a 2 pin plug.

In the case of a radio, i'm suggesting a normal moulded euro-plug.

Specs:
This design incorporates a double
wound isolating transformer rated
20VA at 230 or 115 volts it meets
BS.3535: 1996 making it safe for
use in bathrooms. Insertion of a
shaver plug automatically switches
on by energising the primary side
of the isolating transformer -
removal automatically switches off.
The transformer is protected
against overload by an automatic
solid state overload device with
automatic resetting.




I'd be loathed to see BS1363 plugs and sockets in bathrooms for the following reasons:

1) Many UK homes still don't have RCD protection and use 32A ring circuits.
2) Most UK hairdryers have a rewirable plug, this includes many new appliences as the UK plug is an odd-ball many manufacturers seem to fit rewirable versions. It seems they may even be manufactured with schuko / euro plugs fitted and then snipped off for UK localisation due to the smaller relative size of the market. The rewirable plug is not very well protected against the ingress of water.
3) BS1363's design puts your fingers very close to the pins when the plug is being inserted. This is not true of Schuko or French plugs being inserted into a recessed 16A socket. Wet fingers and a BS1363 plug could potentially be a bad combination.



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 02-07-2005).]

You seem to have a lot of faith in RCDs, more than I do. Also I believe 30mA is enough to kill you. Never mind that you might manage to complete the mains circuit without leaking to earth, e.g. plastic bath.

Similarly, powering radios from shaver sockets is dodgy as although the power from the socket is limited, it's still enough to kill. Lets not forget wet bodies have low resistance.

And allowing sockets in bathrooms because someone might bring in an extension anyway is like letting the stupid die of stupidity. :-)

Well, that's my 2p worth.

Gideonr.

I really can't see the big deal with the radio

People still plug in shavers and directly rub them on their faces connected to that same shaver socket.

We've 9KW electric showers actually in the shower cublical!

These units can be rated up to around 30VA. That's still 125mA -- More than enough to kill. It's really the secondary isolation that provides the increased safety rather than the limited current.

True, but any revision of BS7671 could allow bathroom outlets only if RCD protected (just as it specifies RCD protection for sockets which may reasonably be expected to power outdoor equipment now).

As Gideon said though, 30mA is still enough current to be lethal. Maybe we should be looking more along the lines of American 6mA GFI protection? How about specifying a dedicated radial branch with its own RCBO? You can already get 10mA RCBOs.

Does it need to be? I'm not advocating that somebody should sit in the tub and try to plug in the hairdryer while soaking wet! It comes down to common sense use of the appliance.

Very close? Your fingers can be just as close to the pins on a Europlug when inserting it into a shaver outlet.

They might indeed, but I guess that's the whole point I'm trying to make about common sense. Some people will do stupid things no matter what. If we tried to cater for every last idiotic thing that somebody might do with electricity, we'd go back to using candles!

Yep, and you can have 240V with no RCD protection required in that flimsy plastic box right under the shower head. So what's the big deal with havong a socket placed at a suitable location outside the tub/cubicle zone?

Electric shavers (and toothbrushes) tend to keep the mains wiring close together so if it were dropped in the bath the current would not loop far out into the water, but other items not specifically intended to be used in bathrooms are wired any old way.

As a more general point on this topic, we seem to have very strict rules for swimming pools, yet similar enviromental conditions occur in bathrooms while the rules there aren't so strict? We could also add kitchens to the list, as people are being electrocuted in them too, and virtually no restrictions there at all.

I feel the strategy to try limit the opportunities people have to electrocute themselves is good, and providing ready sockets in bathrooms is a step backwards. Better to disswade them from using hairdryers/mains radios in bathrooms. The presence of water does greatly increase the chances and effects of an accident. Reliance on technology to protect you can backfire, e.g. we know that MCBs occasionally do not trip when they should.

Last friday my dads workshop burnt down. Forty year collection of tools, materials etc incinerated, never mind all the personal items. He virtually lived in it, only coming into the house for meals, tv, and sleep. We don't think the electrics started it, but something wasn't right. Luckily no-one was hurt, but it does give you more respect for safety practices.

I was in my local hardware store where they sell travel adaptor kits.

They still sell the old 2-pin BS546-5A plugs
as a "shaver-adaptor for some parts of the UK."

I guess some UK bathrooms still have those?

(just felt strange for asking that when I mentioned my bathroom has an old socket)

[This message has been edited by GeneSF (edited 02-13-2005).]

[This message has been edited by GeneSF (edited 02-13-2005).]