ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale!

Maybe I have only a passing familiarity with Continental practice, but I just don't see any problem with fitting a standard Schuko plug to a double-insulated appliance.

It's nonsense like this that results in people ignoring advice of much greater importance -- Such as not to connect a 3-wire cord to a two-pin plug and just leave the ground wire hanging loose!

I can't see any reason why connecting a 2 core wire to a grounded schuko plug would be a problem either!

If a CEE 7/IV (Schuko), CEE 7/V (French) or CEE 7/VII (Combination of the the two) plug is mated with a modern grounded schuko or french socket outlet there is absolutely no problem. No potentially live exposed screws and no potential of contacting the live pins as the plug is being inserted.

HOWEVER...

If someone decideds to plug any of the above plugs into a non-grounded socket outlet there is a risk that you can touch the live pins (as its not recessed and the pins are unsheathed) (Same for contour plugs).

But the argument that you shouldn't connect a 2-core flex to a schuko plug is ridiculous.

------------------

Personally, I think that the whole CEE 7 system is over complicated and puts convenience and backwards compatability before safety. It would be fine if every outlet was recessed and grounded but as we all know that's simply not the case in many places.

There are many cases where a grounded schuko plug connected to a Class I applience can be mated with a non grounded socket or a socket in a country that uses a similar pin configuration but a grounding pin (Italy and Denmark for example)

To the average person if you plug something in and it works you don't really go "oh dear! It's not grounded!" It just works perfectly until one day something goes wrong and you end up getting 230V up the arm possibily in an installation without an RCD.

I have never understood the rational behind the use of grounding clips (or the French pin) rather than 3 pins. At least with 3 pins if the ground pin is present you physically cannot insert the plug into a non grounded outlet. I would therefore consider the Italian, Danish and swiss systems far superiour in terms of how they address grounding. The exsistance of CEE 7/7 plugs that happen to fit these outlets without making contact with the ground is the only thing that makes them dangerous.

I think in many ways the UK had the right idea when it adopted something totally different. (Bearing in mind that once common BS546 5A socket wasn't too different to modern danish standards, you could easily plug in a schuko plug)

As did the swiss, their recessed outlets won't mate with schuko eliminating this problem.

And if you try to force a schuko plug into a BS1363 socket you'll break the face plate the pins are substantially too fat to go in.

I would be in favour of the EU banning CEE 7 completely and going for something totally different that would satisify the UK and Irish athorities, Danes, Swiss etc..

I wonder how many electrocutions could be attributed to lack of grounding? (Putting national pride aside you have to admit this system is not exactly safe!)
---

Also bare in mind that I live in one of the only countries to have used schuko but dropped it in favour of something different (BS1363).

Back in the 1950s the technical committees here seem to have decided that we needed to simplify the ridiculous number of connectors that were in use and standardise on one sold safe system. BS1363 was the obvious choice given our proximity to the UK. Schuko wasn't considered as it had too many earthing problems (i.e. class I and class II plugs) and was backward compatable with older less safe versions which were still in use at the time.

Previously we had:
Schuko (1920-WWII) (most were grounded and recessed but some others were not)
BS546 (2A, 5A, 15A grounded) WWII - mid 50s.

So a typical home could have easily had 4 different types of outlets!

From the mid 1950s onwards BS1363 was the prefered system and began to replace the older systems and by the 1960s it was established as the only standard recognised in the wiring regs. In the 1970s it was given legal recognition. IS401 = plug IS411 = socket (switched/nonswitched)

Schuko is almost completely gone, any remaining socket outlets are usually just relics that were too difficult to remove from a wall/panel so were left in place but haven't been connected for many many years. BS546 hung around a little longer but is an extremely rare beast these days.

Schuko installations for specific purposes like hotel rooms (where it is fed via a 13A spur and located alongside a normal Irish socket on a panel) are probabally not legal although the owners could argue that it was simply a fixed adaptor and not intended for normal general use.

The other 2 systems are only still legally recognised to ensure that any spares/replacement plugs etc conform to modern standards.



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-27-2003).]

Just to clarify, I have no problem with fitting a grounded plug to a 2-wire Class 2 appliance from a utilitarian point of view.

However, aesthetically, it just looks wrong and seems silly when you can put in something more compact and tidy looking. (big groan and eyeroll here ) -- not to mention that, at least in the USA, a tiny 2-pin plug for a lamp or radio is usually half the price (a dollar and change or so) of a 3-pin heavy duty plug (three dollars or so) for a refrigerator or a drill. Economics also come into play here.

Of course I'm keeping in mind the scenario of the little dresser lamp with the BS-546 15 amp or BS-1363 13 amp plug hanging from the length of thin zip cord or whatever.

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-27-2003).]

What about a little dresser lamp with a big blue CeeForm plug I've seen a small radio connected to one of those beasts!

CEEform for a radio or table lamp???!!!

That I'd like to see!

against every posts, the adaptor mentioned in the top posts does 2 BIG violations:

1. Allows to use Appliances that NEED grounding without a ground connection

2. and even worse:
Allowes to connect loads up to 16A on a Euro plug thats certified for 2,5 A !!!!!!!

no speaking over this, no excuses, thats a NO NO NO.

i've seen the slotcard steering too. what do they think???
Some guy will unmount this card in use and touch another card with the soldering pins of the 230V terminals. and BOOM. another diy worker that trusted stuff made by idiots!

edit: seems like there's a plastic cover over the soldering parts.
anyways, there is no touch protection at the terminal screws, at the fuse and at the slotplate socket.
and this one violates the protection classes 1 and 3 the PC is normally made, grounded metal casing for the psu and safety low voltage for all accessable hardware.
over all: nothing good. so many casemodders and pc diy workers out there that dont have a clue on such things

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-28-2003).]

Andy, I'm sorry, but if anyone is working on a computer with such a device and leave the machine plugged in and manage to touch across the 220 volt mains, they deserve what they get.

Rule number one of disassembling electric appliances.

UNPLUG THEM FIRST BEFORE OPENING!!!!!

We can't continue to protect people from themselves and their stupidity.

That doesn't excuse the fact that the device should be in a plastic case or insulated metal box to protect surrounding electronic components (other cards) that may be mounted too closely and could possibly short circuit.

It does, however, seem to me that the card is bolted to a sheet of plastic underneath. Look closely at the edges. That may be of some protection. Just don't go poking around the top side!!!

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-28-2003).]

No Sven, that's not right. There are even recommendations to do computer works live, 'cause it ensures the case is grounded. And if you haven't got such bloody idiots messing around you can be pretty sure any dangerous voltage is well enclosed within the power supply. However, a PC is about the _only_ thing I'd open live.
Andy, you pointed out the most serious issue about the cord! It's probably only wired with 0.75mm2 cord, so try to plug in a nice 16A load and you ain't gonna need no heating any more.

i bet its only 0.75mm². thats not the prob, on this short lenght nothing should happen, but the pins and inside connectors of the plug are made for the printed-on 2.5A.