ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades AWG to MWG?

I really don't see how you interpret the desire to retain the units we grew up with as arrogance. It's not a case of trying to force our system on the rest of the world and refusing to accept that other systems and practices are valid.

(Although I admit that in the past Britain has displayed some extreme arrogance, e.g. banning Gaelic in Irish schools during English rule.)

Sorry, but I beg to differ.
What you say is true in its strict legal sense. But when the authorities refuse to certify scales that aren't calibrated in metric, it amounts to the same thing. Saying that traders aren't being turned into criminals for not using metric is just an argument in semantics. The government is effectively saying "You will sell in metric, or you are an outlaw."

The Weights & Measures acts do indeed have a long history in this country, but their purpose was to protect buyers against unscrupulous traders giving short measure.

To remove archaic units which are obsolete and largely unused from the statute books is one thing, but inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, ounces, pints & gallons are units which are still used every day by millions of people in Britain. To outlaw their use is ridiculous.

On another point, whether a general change is good or bad, a "cold turkey" swap to a new system doesn't work easily with some things. I submit the IEE's own Wiring Regulations as an example of how not to execute a changeover.

When metric cables were introduced in Britain, the IEE revised our code by changing everything in the book over to metric in one go. No English units were left at all (some measurements were adjusted up or down slightly in the process, e.g. the 6' rule became 2m).

That make-or-nreak change included all the cable rating tables, so the new code books included tables for only the new metric cables, ignoring the fact that existing cables would be in service for many years to come and electricians would need to look up their ratings.

The only way a modern-day electrician can check the ratings of those cables is to refer back to a pre-1970 edition of the code.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 09-01-2003).]

John S, makes a number of very valid points and in a well laid out manner. I have lived in all worlds. I grew up in the UK with imperial dominant until I left in 1981. I arrived in a fully metricated South Africa and so my conversion was by total immersion and the process was rapid and mostly painless. It was a new world, a new system and there was no need for comparisons or conversions. I found myself thinking and judging metric and would estimate time and distance with reasonable accuracy in kilometres. Interestingly (for me at least ) was that on trips back to the UK it seemed so natural to do the same in miles.

On the metricated imperial units side, the beer in RSA, in returnable bottles, came in two sizes – one called pints with 375ml and the other called a quart with only 750ml. I mentioned to my friends that the UK WMA would have serious problems with these interpretations! Having a ‘pint’ of cold draught beer in a pub measuring 500ml did not make the experience any less enjoyable.

Then move to the US where the measurement system is in state of turmoil. The world of science has long been metric and that of technology mainly so. Remember the Mars lander? NAFTA means that metric measurements appear on every item sold in addition to what the Americans refer to as ‘English’ units. This can be very strange to an Englishman because a lot of these units are not the same as those I grew up with. Most noticeable are the volume measures which are 20% smaller – it makes the gallon to litre conversion much easier. I think those British traders were ripping off the colonists – no wonder they revolted!

The mining industry, of which I am a part, is very conservative in its ways and sticks doggedly to the old units. Everything is measured in feet, plans are scaled in inches per X foot so a plan with a scale of 1:1000 is in fact a 1:12000 plan! Gold grades are measured in ounces (troy) per ton (short, 2000lbs) rather than grams per tonne which also equals a useful parts-per-million. I remember in my early days here listening to a surveyor trying to get his head around some borehole maths involving volume measurements with the length in feet, the diameter in inches, the volume in gallons and the weight of additive for a certain concentration given in pounds – he needed a concentration in relative mass by percent. I heard his demented utterings and saw his tortured face and said helpfully “why don’t you just metricate?”

Another difference I have observed is the depreciated use of the yard and long (2240lbs) ton. A sign in my town says Parking – 1000 feet which I find hard to visualise and vehicle weights are given in thousands of pounds rather than tons – a forty ton truck has a lot of zeros on the plate! The US sticking to ‘English’ measures is strange because in many ways they have metricated in so many ways so long ago. The dollar and cents must be one of the first (if not the oldest) metric currency in the world. The hundred weight is 100lbs, etc.

Getting back to South Africa, one had to be careful when converting from pre-metric data because in Natal were I lived they used the Cape Foot which is about 13” sterling. To complicate my life further (which it did), I discovered the Cape Geodetic Foot used in land measurement which differed from the normal Cape Foot only in the seventh decimal metric. Not much you would say, however when the Mercator grid system used there has its origins at the equator, that seventh decimal place adds up. Needless to say I drilled a borehole off by 15m which put me on the wrong farm. Oh the legal torture that caused is fused into my memory – why did I have to pick the most obnoxious and canterkerous farmer in the Province?

I can’t remember whether I’ve mentioned this before on the forum, but I’ll repeat it again because I find it so fundamental and pedestal smashing amongst the traditionalists. Very few conversions from imperial to metric are exact and I suspect many are not even rational (mathematically speaking), but one is. The foot is exactly 304.8mm long, i.e. an inch is exactly 25.4mm. This conversion defines the US survey foot which is the same as the official imperial foot. This is not by chance and was it defined long after the metre was established and standardised. The awesome (for me) truth is that the unit underlying the definition of the good old foot lies not in the Tower of London but is in fact in Paris, i.e. it is the metre!

IMHO, metric is best. There is only one way to change and that is total immersion. The South African way of making all imperially marked objects illegal is way OTT (my wife when a school girl had a six inch marked ruler sent by her UK Granny confiscated by customs). But then the Afrikaner was wanting to rid the country of all things British.

I reckon the way that the Australians did it was the best. Big bang – fully metric but inches and imperial tools can still be found and 2 by 4s are still called 2 by 4s. My Zulu gardener still worked financially in bob up to the early 1990’s. “Ten bob” (10/-) said Pete – it meant one rand. When the South Africans jettisoned the pound, they did it at the rate of £1 = R2. Made life slightly easier on the shillings and pence.

Anyway that’s my 2d worth – which by my reckoning is worth 1.2p!


[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 09-01-2003).]

The situation also works in reverse, where the law prohibits pub owners from selling a litre of beer or from someone who may wish to erect a road sign giving distances in metric units. Both are still illegal under the WMA.

You are missing the point. The trader is not being turned into an outlaw by not selling in metric. The trader's scale must comply with the law. The trader chooses to be a criminal when he/she does not comply. Just like a car driver becomes a criminal when they break traffic laws.

The trader can still sell a pound of apples or whatever, as long as the scale weighs them out in grams. You ask for a pound, and the trader weighs out 450 g. You still get your pound and the trader still makes his sale. Why the fuss?

Thruthfully, how many traders have complied with the law and how many have not? Let's face it, there was no real large scale rebellion on the part of traders, it was a nuisance few. Part of the reason they lost their appeals was that the rest of the traders complied and many felt that the situation would be unfair to the majority that did comply.

Also, the laws don't outlaw non-SI units, they make them non-legal. Meaning they don't have legal backing. You ask for a pound and you get whatever the trader decides the pound is for that day. If you don't like that, then you can ask for what what you want in grams. I'm sure most can, but it is arrogance that prevents one from speaking the g-word. Some people must be fools to think that if they uttered the g-word their tongues would fall out.

And for those that don't know what grams are, how long should it take to learn? If you train yourself to think of a pound as 500 g and you need only a half pound of something, what is so hard about asking for 250 g? And if 250 g seems to be more then what you wanted, the next time you ask for 200 g. You learn to work with the new numbers.

The shops could play a better roll in the teaching process, explaining how to economically shop in metric. Expecting the public to learn on their own is somewhat defeating, as most need to be lead by the hand. The shops taking an active part in the conversion would really ease the consumer into becoming a smart metric shopper. And, if certain luddites refuse to be taught, then there should be absolutely no sympathy for them.

I guarantee you my friend, that the future will not be kind to those that refuse to metricate. The metricated people will move forward and the non-metricated people will struggle just to survive.

From: http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/

livre
a traditional unit of weight in French speaking countries and in Greece. The livre corresponds to the English pound and to the Spanish libra (see above). The livre is divided into 2 marcs or into 16 onces. The French livre varied from market to market, but the official standard from about 1350 to the introduction of the metric system was the livre poids de marc or livre de Paris of 489.5 grams (1.079 English pounds). In modern France, the livre is used as a metric unit equal to exactly 500 grams or 0.5 kilogram (1.1023 pounds). The traditional Greek livre is also about 500 grams.

Notice, that it was the livre de Paris that was 489.5 g, and even though this was the standard since 1350, the livre did vary from "market to market", meaning enforcement was lite.

I'm sure that had the metric system not come along when it did, some international agreement would have set a "standard" for a pound unit.

Another unit that varied all over the place was the foot, and it was said that their were over 5000 variations at the time of the invention of the metric system in the 1790s.

I'm sure there was a pied de Paris too, but it also must not have been enforced universally.

Exactly! One of the greatest errors that people who cling to old units make is that they all think all the units are the same.

If an American hears that beer is sold in pints in British pubs, it never occurs to the American that the pint is larger by 20 % (568 mL vs 473 mL). The American assumes the pint in Britain is one and the same with the pint in the US.

How many people who use FFU (Fred Flintstone units - a common name for all non-SI units), are really aware that a unit can have multiple meanings?

How many people who claim to know FFU know the difference in the UK vs US units? Or that an ounce of mass/weight is not the same as an ounce of volume or that a pint is not a pound the world around? How many know that a land mile is not the same as a nautical mile, that there is an almost 250 m difference? That 4 nautical miles is almost 1 km longer then 4 land miles?

How many people know that an ounce of gold has more mass then an ounce of lead? Or that a pound of gold has less mass then a pound of lead?

How many British would really understand a person's weight expressed exclusively in pounds, and how many Americans would know what a stone is?

How many British would understand long distance measured in feet and how many Americans really comprehend yards? Except for American football, the only time yards are used is when the media changes the word metres to yards in international news events. The bomb exploded 100 m from my home becomes The bomb exploded 100 yards from my home.

And how many people can realy do the math (maths in the UK) with FFU? What do those who cling to FFU really know about FFU? Answer: very little.

I've heard it said of both the US and the UK, that the measuremnt mess in both countries has made the citizens of both the UK and US innumerate in both SI and FFU. Not something to be proud of.

2d is actually 0.8333p.

I've noticed that too. American signs are far more likely to say "Men working 300 feet ahead" whereas in Britain it would be "Road works, 100 yards."

The long ton is the British/Commonwealth standard by the way. The standard U.S. measurement is the short ton of 2000 lb., although straight pounds does seem to be more common in many fields. My Nebraska driver's license specified "vehicles up to 24,000 lb."

You seem to be well-read on what's going on in Britain, so I assume you're referring to the case a while back where an immigrant set up an Italian or Austrian-themed bar (I forget which) and sold beer in liters and half-liters.

He soon fell foul of the Trading Standards bullies, which led to the ridiculous situation of other traders being prosecuted for refusing to use metric while this guy was being threatened with court because he was using metric!

The whole shambles would be laughable if it were not costing decent people their livelihoods.

MOre on the Road Signs situation here .

Probably about the same number as those who know how many c.c.'s in a liter. That's down to education.

Call them Fred Flintstone Units if you wish. They got us to the moon and back.

Paul you are quite right - my mental arithmatic was completely upsidedown. Shame on me and to think I used to run the grade/year 6 class shop in 1970 when the two monies ran in parallel! Happy days.

They need to change cleanly to metric units. Ireland has a crazy situation with road signs. Distances on modern signs are in KM while speeds are still in MPH as the UK specification for cars is with MPH speedometers (or at least it was when we converted)

Shops all sell in metric units and have done for years but will serve an approximation if you ask for a pound.. if you ask for X ounces prepare to get a very rough approximation.

I fail to see why some manufacturers have stupidly stuck to 1lb packs and just converted the units to some ridiuculously unfriendly number in grammes.. no wonder people think it's complicated. Why not 500g or 1/2 KG. At least most irish manufacturers have switched to round metric units. Sugar comes in 5KG, 1Kg (normal) or 500g, milk is all liters..

The only weird one is the pint glass in a bar.

you can sell beer in whatever volumes you like but if someone asks for a half pint or a pint it MUST be in an approved glass and filled to a mark so that pints don't vary from place to place.

Spirits are also sold by a standard measure, non metric. (VERY strict regs)

We still have old ladies converting from 2 shillings to "new pounds" to Euros

Not to mention my grandmother's cooking!

She first converts from Gas Mark VI to Degrees F and finally to celcius before setting the oven!




[This message has been edited by djk (edited 09-02-2003).]

I was all of 5 years old at the time of the changeover! I still have a "Snap" card game that was issued at the time, with LSD and new money depicted on different cards.

The main point as seen by those of us opposed to enforced metrication is simply that there is no need for the Draconian laws being inflicted upon us.

We are not being arrogant by trying to tell the rest of the world to use English units. We're not even telling people in our own country that they shouldn't use metric if they wish. (And yes, I do use metric in scientific work, where appropriate.) Metric has been perfectly legal in Britain for well over a century.

The point is that we should be free to choose. The Trading Standards people should become involved only in cases where somebody is trying to defraud by giving short measure, be it 15.5 oz. instead of 1 lb. or 950g instead of 1kg.

If you wonder why so many people in Britain are on the defensive over this issue, it's simply because we do not like a bunch of bureaucrats trying to take away our rights and enforce change upon every area of our daily lives.


PLenty more examples at: http://www.kc3.co.uk/~dt/Metrication.htm




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 09-03-2003).]

Neither is very effective as the odometers in cars calibrated in miles has the last digit in tenths of miles, which are not easily translatable into either feet or yards. On kilometric odometers, the last digit is 0.1 km, which easily translates into 100 m.


I thought the long ton was depricated and replaced by the tonne (1000 kg). Since the two are very close in value, it isn't necessary to have both.

Americans like to use units that give big numbers. Sounds more impressive. Every time there is a forest fire, the area is always given in acres, never square miles or square kilometres. The use of acres makes the area sound bigger.


No, I was referring to an incident that happened in the mid 90s. The incidents you are referring to happened more recently. And they had to do with theme bars and not your ordinary British pubs.

If people are worried that the pint will be replaced by a 500 mL size, a loss of 68 mL, there is no cause for concern. Britain can follow the Australian example, go to a 600 mL size. This way one gets 32 mL more. And if it makes everyone happy, it can still be called a pint. Just like 500 g can be called a pound.


That is why it makes the most sense to complete the metrication process quickly and end the half-way in the middle situation.


A common false assumption. It is assumed that since the US was the first to go to the moon and the US uses FFU, that the moon journey was strictly an FFU adventure.

Actually, the journey to the moon was the work of a German, by the name of Werner von Braun. Von Braun and the other Germans who ran NASA in its heyday, loathed and never used non-metric units. Von Braun said so in an interview before he died. Of course, all his metric designs had to be "translated" into FFU for the Americans to build the rockets and such, but the actual behind the scenes design and calculations were done in metric units. It was hidden metric that got us to the moon.