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The largest domestic shower I've seen here is rated 9.6kW (40A). These have become much more common in the last few years. I have one of the older 1970s units (a Heatrae Carousel) on my shower which is rated only 6kW.

Quadruple glazing -- Wow, I'm impressed! I knew that triple glazing was being used in America and Continental Europe now, but it's still not really caught on in a big way here. As I've said before, Britain really is slow in getting away from cold, drafty old houses.

Re the underground heat distribution in Stockholm, do the pipes carry hot water or steam?

I know that many years ago Con-Edison distributed steam along a network of pipes under New York City to provide heating. (It's the steam you sometimes see escaping through grids in the street in old movies.) It always seemed logical to me to use the steam from their generating plants in this way rather than just waste all the heat.

I don't whether ConEd still uses this system. I'm sure one of our New Yorkers will provide the answer.

Paul:

Yes, New York's central steam heat system is still very much in use mostly by huge office towers.

Occasionally when you see street maintenance being performed you will see huge orange and white plastic stacks sitting on the street belching out white steam. And I've even noticed some areas where there are cracks in the steam pipes and the steam fizzes out through crevices in the pavement.

Surreal.

I've never seen an instant shower here. Typical water heating in old flats is a 10l natural gas boiler, or if upgraded to central heating a combo heating/hot water gas boiler. There is central heating with heat from power plants (maybe) but sure from waste burning. I think these lines run on steam. Many public buildings are supplied with this type of heating. The standard electrical suplly for flats, more or less regardless of the size, was for a long time 1x 20A, only people with an electric range had 3x20.
Windows: the standard window here was for a long time the double-sash casement. It simply has an inner and outer sash, most continental europeans will probably know them. They were pretty good, but are now being replaced (at least for new construction, but many maniacs also rip out their old windows) with plastic or wooden thermal casements. So double glazing has a long tradition here. Sngle hung guillotine windows were only used here for bays or screened porches where casements would be in the way when open.

The heat is transported as high pressure water, at a temperature way higher than 100°C. Very common, used also in many towns.

The heat comes from power plants, waste combustion etc. Even nuclear power has been used.

The AC is a new system: It's simply seawater circulated and then dropped back into the sea. (Huge quantities are needed)

Quad glazing is still experimental. Any sizeable window becomes too heavy for the frame. Gas filled triple glazing seems to be favoured. (The Germans build houses without heating and Swedish builders are trying to copy this.)

Gas is rarely used here. Gas cookers are replaced as flats are rewired. (There has been a massive drive to rewire in the past decade)

Replace gas with electric??????
Here the vast majority of cooking and heating in urban/suburban areas is done with gas, rural areas are mostly on electric cooking and wood or oil heating. And friends of gas ranges would rather have their hands chopped of than changing to electric. Furthermore for electric ranges you need 3ph service which is simply more expensive than a 1ph one. And gas is _much_ cheaper than electricity here. Typical equipment in an old flat is the following: gas range (3 burners + oven, usually not older than 30 years, most older ones were thrown out during change from coal to natural gas 1970-78, could not be converted), 5l oversink gas boiler in the kitchen, 10l gas boiler in the bathroom, some gas heaters depending on the size of the appartment. Rehabs usually put a central heating boiler in place of the old 10l bathrrom one and replace the gas heaters, but may leave the 5l boiler in the kitchen if there's a longer distance between kitchen and bathroom (in our case +10m)). Many old flats are still on wood heaters (classmate of mine heats appartment with 2 wood heaters for example)
Some people even put up large propane tanks in rural areas for heating and cooking because they prefer it)

Then there are some areas in urban centers where residents of buildings not served by Town Gas buy cylinders of gas (the small ones) to bring home and hook to their gas stove. This is also more popular in some rural areas.

Not to mention that wood/coal stoves are still manufactured - for COOKING!!! I saw one in a hardware catalog that came in the mail yesterday (costs around US$2.000). Why anyone would buy one of those dinosaurs nowadays is beyond me. Guess it's the same people who still insist on fireplaces in this day and age of modern steam-heat.

I won't even go into those scenarios where people still cook using portable oil stoves or gasoline stoves....indoors

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 01-07-2003).]

Ragnar:

Yes, gas cookers can be better than their electrical counterparts. Not always, though. Modern ceramic rings are good. The problem with gas is the fire safety and health issue: Fire dept. don't like 'em (guess why). Health authority doesn't like 'em as they increase the number of cases of respiratory related medical conditions among children. Gas boilers aren't used here.

Gas meters are rare: You pay €100 per year for the gas. The exact fee is based on the number of rooms you have. There is talk of doing the same to electricity, as meters and metering is expensive.

Very interesting this thread!

The belgian po co try to give to new houses (old installations is a different story)only 2 phases, since they can balance it much better that way.

So, 'till 63A they give monophase but if somebody specifically wants more then they give 3 Ph+N with a minimum of 3x40A and a maximum of 3x63A.

We also always have 4 pole main breakres (in 3 phase systems, of course) so that we don't have "dancing voltage".

One more thing: 40A we use 6mm2, 63A we use 10mm2.

I think that our system very much resembles your proposal, CH?

Well, every summer I'm at a house in Italy where all the cooking is done with propane cylinders, 2 of them in use, usually 1 or 2 empty ones and some spare ones, all stored in the kitchen. Years ago when there was no power all the lighting was done with kerosene and propane.
I agree that modern electric cookers are quite good, but still gas ranges have some advantages (better heat regulation, faster reaction,..). Top here is gas burners and electric oven. Very expensive. Gas ranges are 300 Euro the cheapest ones, and gas is _waaay_ cheaper than electricity. That's also the reason why electric heating is completely nonsense here.
Most of the gas lines are as old as the houses they're in, not too tight, but by far not leaky enough to give explosions (usually result of tampering with the lines), and not nearly as botched as eletrical lines (1", 3/4" or 1/2" painted steel is the way gas lines are run here, still today, sometimes the joints are welded now, but many plumbers still thread and tighten the joints with hemp fibers.) You can continue using these lines as long as you don't extend or move them. Then you have to have them checked which usually leads to having them replaced. After changing the gas lines also all appliances have to meet newest standards, meaning you'll have to dump all appliances older than ca 15 years (maybe not even that). If anybody smells gas, s/he's told to call 128, Wiengas emergency number. Bad idea! Only thing they do is turn off the main valve, seal it and advise you to call a plumber. You don't need them guys for closing a valve!

The only good electric hob (cooktop) in terms of speed and controlability and efficient use of power is an induction hob. Otherwise I'd use gas.

They're as or even more responsive to control than gas and heat pans (pots) evenly and within seconds. As the surface of the cooker doesn't get hot there's little or no residual heat so once you lower the temp the pan cools. They're ultra safe, you can't burn a pot (usually have a max heat trip out as they can read the actual pot temp as there is no heat source below) and if you remove a pot the unit knows and switches off the power.

They heat woks / unusual shape pans much more evenly as the EM field doesn't require absolute direct contact. it's active a few CM above the hob surface.

Also no energy is wasted on small pots, strange shaped pots as it only heats the metal area of the object placed on top where as a radient hob will heat the whole area of the ring wasting maybe 50% of the power.

the only drawback you need to use good quality stainless steel, copper or cast iron cookware. The tefal stuff is rubbish as it tends to heat in spots. If you've got good pots and pans you can't beat it as a system though.

the power consumption is WAY better than a regular ceramic, ring or solid hob with elements. Most of the power is actually heating the pot as opposed to being wasted heating the air/surface of the cooker.

The only other potential draw back is they're pretty heavily dependent on electronics to produce the high frequency AC EM fields needed to heat the pots. We have a De Detrich hob for 2 years so I can't tell you if they'll last the pace or if they die after a few years.

they also have cooling fans underneeth to cool the electronics (4 ultra silent fans) and the do make a slight ticking noise when switching in and out (like tick tick tick tick)

Overall it's a very nice peice of kitchen ware have had no problems with it whatsoever. Very slim, (touch controls), works like a charm!