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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 134
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A small point for all of you "dissing" the UK ring main.
Most washers, dryers & dishwahers on the UK market now, do not exceed 2.4/2.5Kw.
Kettles, toasters, microwaves etc are only on for a few minutes at a time in normal residential applications. Obviously dedicated circuits should be installed on commercial / guest houses / hotel washers & dryers, but they are often more than 13A or 3 ph anyhow.

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,498
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C-H Offline OP
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>Most washers, dryers & dishwahers on the UK
>market now, do not exceed 2.4/2.5Kw.

Ah! Almost every large domestic appliance here in Sweden is now 2300W (= 10A). Domestic dryers and washers used to be 10A 3 ph. Guess what happened when they wanted to sell the same model in both UK, Germany and Sweden? Yes, that's correct: The least common denominator was 10A single phase. As more countries are added to the common market, all of which are rather poor, we aren't likely to see any change.

Joined: Aug 2001
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David,
It's true that a lot of the higher-powered appliances are only run for a few minutes at a time, but how often do people these days expect to be able to run almost everything simultaneously in the kitchen?

The kettle goes on for tea, the u-wave oven is heating some instant snack for the kids' breakfast, while mom & dad are preparing their breakfast toast or whatever. And I know several households where one load of laundry goes into the dryer and another goes straight into the washer, while the previous night's and the morning's breakfast dishes go into the dishwasher at practically the same time.

If we have to keep the ring, I'd at least like to see a much better distribution of load between the two (or more) ring final circuits.

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 134
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The point I am trying to make here, is that of these large appliances the dryer would be the only steady 2.4 Kw load, the dishwasher & washing m/c only draw this amount during the heat up cycles. Kettles & toasters only take minutes.
I do agree that loading should be better distributed within ring mains. On new houses I tend to put the utility room (washer & dryer) on the ground floor ring & kitchen with dishwasher on a dedicated kitchen ring main.
When I lived in Oz, the kitchen was served by 1 16A radial circuit, the following appliances were connected:
kettle, microwave with grill, fridge-freezer, garbage disposal, cooker hood, dishwasher, toaster, the breaker NEVER tripped. I think there was also a socket in another part of the house connected to this circuit.
Another 16A radial circuit supplied all other sockets in the house including the laundry.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
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I guess it all comes down to just how the inhabitants go about their daily/weekly routine and how much equipment they expect to be able to use at the same time.

Your point about most of those large loads being on for only a few minutes is a valid one, and of course if the ring does carry, say 40A for a couple of minutes, we know it's not going to trip the 32A MCB immediately.

But I still feel that too many installations follow the exact letter of the 100 sq. meter rule while ignoring the other general requirements that all branch circuits should also take into consideration the expected load and usage.

Joined: Jul 2002
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My Dutch co-worker, who moved here about
15 years ago, had to re-sit his whole apprenticeship, in NZ here, as the NZ authorities, do not recognise a Dutch ticket or a German Electrical ticket as an Inspector, this guy had 20 years experience as an Inspector in Holland.
This, I feel, is beauracacy? gone mad.
The Immigration Service over here told him,
he could practice here, the Electrical Workers Registration Board had different ideas, makes me want to spit tacks.

Joined: Aug 2001
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It does sound completely overboard.

To have required him to sit an exam to demonstrate his knowledge of NZ practices and rules would have been reasonable -- After all, things are no doubt as different in NZ compared to The Netherlands as they are between England and the U.S.

But to require him go through an entire apprenticeship despite his numerous years of experience strikes me as being ridiculous.

Sounds like what in Britain would be a good candidate for a "Jobsworth" award. (From the type of official who says "More than my job's worth mate....")

Joined: Jul 2002
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Good call, Paul,
My sentiments exactly, looks like someone was looking for something to do.
People like this really annoy me!.

Joined: Sep 2002
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C-H Offline OP
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I found the French wiring regs (I think?):
http://www.ute-fr.com/domino2/SiteWeb.nsf/ZDEBUG/E071730DF75D5AD6C1256C8600583AC7/$File/Index_15100.htm

The pages use the word international repetedly, so it might be a competitor to the NEC... [Linked Image] But, as it cost €235 (!) (same in $) and is in French only it is probably in for a tough match...

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
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Yes, it looks like they are the official regulations. NF C 15-100 is the number that I was quoted by several people in the French electrical forum. (I assume that the NF stands for Norme Française.)

I thought that the IEE Regs./BS7671 had gotten expensive, but it looks like a real bargain compared to this publication!


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-20-2002).]

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