ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades 400V - scary or not?

Dunno. Maybe Tradition. Most bigger aplliances are hard-wired here. (space heaters, ranges,...)

Hutch,

Re Brother-in-law's immersion heater.
UK domestic immersion heaters do not normally exceed 3Kw @ 240V (12.5A).
It is considered bad practice to use a 13A socket or connection unit for the final connection to an imm. as it may overheat due to the high continuous load & ambient temp. in the airing cupboard.
I have seen the 15A plug & socket used as the final connection to imm. htrs. in many homes built in the 60's & 70's.
I should point out that it is only installed as a local isolator for anyone working at the imm. or hot water cylinder. A control switch (20A DP & neon labelled water heater) is installed in a convenient position, usually the kitchen for normal control of the imm. by the householder. This is another minor difference in practice from England, where I understand (correct me if I'm wrong Paul) they do not install a control switch in the kitchen.
Nowadays we use a 20A DP switch as the final connection for imm htrs, with a control switch in the kitchen.
Hope this answers the question.

Paul,
Yes these are large houses with a 3 wire service.
I am told that in the days of DC the voltage was around 120V, but I really don't know much about it. I think conversion to 240/415V AC was around 60 years ago.

[This message has been edited by David UK (edited 11-03-2002).]

C-H,
Re the 400V range elements, it just goes to show how accepted practice differs from one country to another. What about some of the ancillary apparatus found in a modern range? Do your appliances use 400V timers, clocks, lights, fan motors, and so on? Or is a 400V-230V transformer fitted inside for these?

David,
I've seen both BS1363 (fused 13A) and the old BS546 15A plug/socket combination used as an immersion disconnect in properties wired in the 1950s/1960s as well. (I once had someone who was convinced he could buy the "special 15A fuses" for 13A plugs for just this use!) Unfortunately, I see a lot of DIY immersion wiring where somebody has run 2.5 T&E straight into the heater instead of going to heat-resistant flex for the final loop.

Thinking about the location of the switch for the water heater, there doesn't seem to be much consensus in England on where it's placed. Some houses have it in the kitchen, but the hallway is another favorite. Inside the airing cupboard itself is also very common, usually then using a combined switch/flex outlet.

It would be interesting to find out just how long some of the 120/240V DC services survived. I'd always thought that this utilization voltage was very much confined to the very early days of home electricity in Britain and that they were soon converted to 240/480V. It sounds as though some lower voltage systems survived for much longer.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 11-04-2002).]

Good question! Unfortunately, I cannot answer it. I go since I've sold cookers and fridges...

The only feature on a standard range is a lamp inside. I suppose a 230V bulb can be run on 400V using a diode. The high-end ranges with all those extras have a neutral. Therefore, I find it likely that the features are powered by 230V.

I have written to Electrolux to find out for sure.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 11-04-2002).]

As all the ranges I know have a neutral as well I suppose all the auxiliary stuff runs on 230V.
Maybe also a 230V lamp hooked up with a resistor, but I don't think so. The cable emerging our ranges (flex) are always 5 wire (Don't know about 1950ies and so stuff), 3 phases, neutral and ground, wired into a box with special cover with 5 strip connectors and strain relief. (It's a metal frame with the electrical stuff mounted on that's put into the box, and then a blank cover with a hole for the cord goes on)

I doubt they'd use a series diode. A 230V bulb connected to 400V through a diode would still be severely overrun and probably wouldn't lasy very long.

Be interesting to hear the response from the manufacturer, but by bet is on a small transformer.

Is Electrolux a popular make in Sweden? Their base in the U.K. is near to where I grew up; they're most closely associated with refrigerators here.

I did get a response from Electrolux. It was unintelligble. Anyone who is surprised?

Electrolux is pretty much the only manufacturer selling ranges, fridges and the like in Sweden. They have >90% of the market, but use different brands to make it less obvious. AEG, Husqvarna, Electrolux and a number of other brands.

C-H,
A range with no Neutral, even though it has
3 Phases feeding it, pure 400V.
It just makes any short-circuit fault, all that much larger!.

I think we may have a glitch in the software, as there was a post here with a null message, no user ID field, and a completely scrambled date. I've deleted it to get the thread back where it belongs.

If somebody did indeed try to post to this thread recently, then please try again.

bonsoir paul: yeah that the link i am looking for anyway one of you guys metion about north american stove burner rings almost all north amercaian stove are wired straght 240 volts ( but have handfull rated for 208 volts ) but do have nuturel line there also for 120 v lightbulb and timer etc.. but i will cut to chase somewhere on the forms i dont remember where it was but it did mention about dryer on 240 volts too if someone can find the link please do that for me unforetealy most N.A. stove are wired single phase using 40 or 50 amp lines typically about 9.5 kw to 12 kw or so depend on what it have it


merci marc


(p.s. paul i did try to find this forms and many thanks to find it )