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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 106
J
Member
Pauluk,
Just reading through your side of the site and came accross the problems one of the members was having with RCBO`s, having been in the electrical trade for about two decades now and having used the various suppliers with the country, the only ones i will now fit are the `field fit` RCBO add ons to the MEM series two MCB`s, these fit the standard domestic dis board as well as the commercial TP/N boards,check out your local Wholesaler ( you wont find them in the `Sheds` IE the B & Q and Homebase ) not that your local DIY er would know what to do with them, thats a different subject,

Bye for now,

John Harrison

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 177
B
Member
>Why? Do you have some type of high power industrial washing machines in homes? Perhaps, Belgians have very clean clothes or Belgium is very dirty?

In the practice the inspectors tolerate 2.5mm2
One explanation that I got is so that the earth is automaticaly also 4mm2. But this answer didn't satisfy me. A different explanation is that this is a outdated code from when people started using tumble dryers on the same sockets and therefore they "prescribed" 4mm2. On all new installations the practice is to have 2 sockets with 2 seperate 2.5mm2 cables.

>I take it that you use 230V cookers in Belgium? Are Belgian houses supplied with all three phases or just single-phase 230V?

The new instal. are single phase and therefore 6mm2. We do have also 3 phase installations and then it is allowed 4mm2 for stoves.

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,498
Likes: 1
C
C-H Offline OP
Member
Quote

A different explanation is that this is a outdated code from when people started using tumble dryers on the same sockets and therefore they "prescribed" 4mm2. On all new installations the practice is to have 2 sockets with 2 seperate 2.5mm2 cables.

You mean that 4 mm2 is intended to supply both washer and dryer, whereas 2.5 mm2 is enough if you have separate circuits? Then it makes sense.

Quote

The new instal. are single phase and therefore 6mm2. We do have also 3 phase installations and then it is allowed 4mm2 for stoves.

New installs are single phase whereas old are 3-phase?

How large are the supplies for 1) a flat, 2) a single family house ? (I.e., the rating of the main fuse)

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 177
B
Member
>New installs are single phase whereas old are 3-phase?
Yes, b/c the electr co. realised that it wasn't a good rentability with supplying 3 phases.

Also old installations are 120/220V with the neutral not being branched in the house. These systems are remnants from the old system which were 120V.
New installations are 230/400V

>How large are the supplies for 1) a flat, 2) a single family house ? (I.e., the rating of the main fuse)

flats normally 40A
houses normally 40A (you can make a special demand for 3 phases) or eventually go up to 63A.

Joined: Sep 2002
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C
C-H Offline OP
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Quote

flats normally 40A
houses normally 40A (you can make a special demand for 3 phases) or eventually go up to 63A.

I've read somewhere that Greece and Spain also use 40A single phase supplies. I suppose it is the smallest useful size for a house. What do our British friends think of this? (They use 100A supplies!)

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 382
H
Member
Paul Said:

"Don't think I've come across the single-width RCBO devices. The regular double-width bolt-on types have been fine."

I’ve covered some of this before in a previous thread, but in South Africa the panel mounted GFCIs are all two pole and I think (it’s been some time) earth both poles on the load side when tripped. The panel is laid out with a main two pole breaker (usually 60A – I’ll come back to this), 40A CB for the stove, 30A for the water heater (both of these have two pole isolators near the equipment) and at least two 10A circuits for the lights. The feed is then through the GFCI (capacity 60A but no trip on overload) to the 20A CBs feeding all of the power sockets in the house and the supply to the garage.

Coming on to supply amperage, my last municipality in South Africa based the basic charge component of the monthly bill on the capacity of the main breaker on the meter board. A 40A breaker in a brand new and damp townhouse proved insufficient to heat the place as well as cook and bath the baby and was soon up-rated to 60A. My basic charge nearly doubled for this privilege! However, it was a progressive “tax” because if you lived in a two room house and could get by on 30A it made the cost of electricity more affordable by having only a negligible basic charge. The unit cost per kWh also increased as certain monthly thresholds were exceeded. By making one pay for capacity they did not need to use other capping mechanisms common in other towns such as ripple control being used to turn off the water heater in times of high demand.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
P
Member
Wow, things have been busy in this thread! [Linked Image]

I think quite a few countries have tariffs which base the standing charge on the maximum capacity of the supply. This is certainly the case with EDF in France, and some installations there even have contactors which will cut out a separate heating panel when demand on other circuits increases.

I still see some 40A services (240V single-phase) in a few houses in this area, although 60 to 100A are now the most common.

Last year I even found a house which still had an old 30A service. It was quite a large old Victorian place too, with about 5 bedrooms, in each of which had been added a 1kW heater when the place had been used as a guesthouse. Add the 3kW immersion heater and an electric cooker, and I bet the PoCo made a few trips to replace the fuse.

I pulled out all the heaters and the stove was converted to gas (one of the few towns in the area with gas available), but the owner then wanted to add a 9.6kW electric shower. Sorry.......



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-13-2002).]

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,498
Likes: 1
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C-H Offline OP
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The Swedish power companies use a similar tariff. The basic charge is based only on the fuse size. It doesn't matter if you are a commercial customer or a consumer.

3x16A (or 1x35A) comes at $30 a year (But you pay an extra $.01 per kWh)

3x25A comes at $250 per year, and 3x50A at $600 per year

(If you live in the countryside, it of course becomes much more expensive.)

Usually you pay some $.08 per kWh. (Haven't checked lately since I have an unmetered supply.)

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 10-13-2002).]

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 177
B
Member
The Belgian company uses a similar type of tarief, too.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
P
Member
Hmm, 16A service $30 per year, 25A service $250 per year -- That's quite a difference!

My standing charge (TXU Energi, formerly the Eastern Electricity Board) works out to $60 per year, 10 cents per unit day, 4.2 cents per unit night rate, including tax.

The standing charge is a little lower if you don't have the night tariff.

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