ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades 220/440V 2ph/3w service in Austria

That seems to differ somewhat from the accepted American definition (see other threads) in which such a conductor is a neutral, whether grounded or not.

Interesting on the color codes that another country (in addition to Germany & Austria) used red for ground. Do you know if other Scandinavian countries followed this practice?

>That seems to differ somewhat from the
>accepted American definition (see other
>threads) in which such a conductor is a
>neutral, whether grounded or not.

Don't get me wrong. What I wrote was in no way an offical definition or something taken from a book. It was simply what I would define as neutral, from the top of my mind.

What happens if you use a center-tapped transformer and connects one side to ground instead of the center? You will have one wire with 120V to the grounded wire and one with 240V to ground. Which wire is then the neutral?

I will look up the other thread.

>Interesting on the color codes that another
>country (in addition to Germany & Austria)
>used red for ground. Do you know if other
>Scandinavian countries followed this
>practice?

Yes, there were other countries using red as ground. I've seen a list at some time, but I can't remeber which. Just about every colour has been used for every purpose. The Soviet Union used black as PE. (Although I doubt they ever used very much PE...)


[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 09-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 09-27-2002).]

Wow, old USSR color codes; there's something I knew nothing about! Do you know anything else about old Soviet wiring practices?

My one experience of Russian color codes was with an imported USSR-made transistor radio in the 1970s. The wires to the battery compartment were pink and blue; I assumed that the blue would be negative and the pink positive.

Wrong! (Although I realize now that I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions, I can only plead that at the time I was only about 10 years old and had never come across such a strange color code.)

Regarding colour coding: After some searching I located the source of the information. The text below is a slightly edited and shorted version of the following NG posting. Although it claims to apply to mains cords only, it seem to be valid for fixed wiring too.

-----
Andrew Emmerson (midshires@cix.compulink.co.uk)
Safety or heresy
rec.antiques.radio+phono
1995/10/17
------
Mains Cords
By this we mean flexible appliance wiring or line cords, not the fixed cable or wiring inside the walls. All colour code combinations are given in the order L, N, E: In other words line (live), neutral and earth (ground).

The current general standard is Brown, Blue, Yellow/Green striped and this is mandatory in most European countries and on items intended for sale in those countries. The colours were chosen not for their association (otherwise brown would be earth!) for reasons set up below.

Elsewhere in the world and also in Europe in previous times, these colour codings vary widely. The following combinations can be encountered. Again the order is L, N, E and the list is not intended to be exhaustive.

Belgium: Red, yellow or blue, Grey, Black.
Germany: Usually Grey, Black, Red.
Great Britain: Red, Black, Green.
Netherlands: Any colour but grey or red, Red, Grey.
Russia: Red, Grey, Black.
Switzerland: Red, Grey, Yellow or yellow/red.
USA, Canada: Black, White, Green.

The foregoing should make it clear why a unified colour coding of wires was necessary. Green is by no means the obvious colour for earth either:
before standard colours were adopted, earth was red in Austria, Finland, Germany, Norway, and Sweden; black in Belgium and Russia, grey in the Netherlands and Poland, yellow in Switzerland and green in Britain and North America. Three cheers for standardisation!

The choice of colours for the world-wide system was not arbitrary either; earth (ground) had to be distinguished and making it striped was an inspired choice. The other two colours had to be clearly distinguishable, even by people who suffer colour-blindness, and blue and brown were judged the most clearly different shades by experts in this field.


[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 09-28-2002).]

Ouch!
Didn't know there were THAT much color codes. Hungary and the GDR also used the black/grey/red scheme. In Austria this was the official color coding and always used for flexible cords, but for fixed wiring any available color was used. I've seen 2 white wires, 2 black ones, 2 greens, 2 yellows, 2 browns... violet, orange (no ground), red, white, yellow/green, red for ground, 2 green ones tagged black and white for L and N,...
Red for ground, some rusty reddish brown,
All I can remember now, but I think I've seen some more. I've also seen cables with 2 black conductors (above I only meant single wires)
Today colors other than red (completely banned for any new work, acceptable to remain in use) and yellow/green are used for circuit identification, switch loops, ect.
What a mess!

Well, the self-appointed electricians still use whatever is available. In my kitchen they used green/yellow only when they wired the lights last year. Live, neutral and earth are all green/yellow. Which wire is which is anyones guess.


[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 09-29-2002).]

Interesting quote there. Andrew Emmerson is a name quite well-known in England to those of us with an interest in old radio, TV, & telephone equipment.

I remember reading an article once about the association of colors in different cultures. It's interesting that before the days of international standardization almost every English-speaking country had adopted green for earth/ground and, from that list, practically no non-English-speaking place used green for that purpose.

From the header of the quote, the article must be talking about the question of whether to replace the mains cord when renovating an old radio set. This is something I've heard about before, and I've seen some people state that it is absolutely necessary in the name of safety to install a new cord with the current color code.

I disagree. So long as the original cord is in good condition, I don't see it matters that it has the old colors (and bear in mind that in the U.K., anything made before around 1970 would have the old red/black/green code, so a lot of 1950s/1960s equipment will have perfectly serviceable PVC-insulated cords).

A neighbor runs a small antique shop in town (loosely antique; she also sometimes sells 1950s radios, telephones etc., which is where I enter the scene!).

The leaflets issued by our Trading Standards Dept. actually suggest that old-color cords be replaced with modern equivalents because "the old system may be confusing." Note that it is their suggestion; it is not a requirement.

What is a requirement, however, is that electrical equipment sold second-hand in shops now has to be fitted with the modern 13A fused plug.

Now if the equipment has to be sold with a plug properly fitted, how could the color of the wires be a source of confusion to anyone?




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 09-30-2002).]

I can understand choices red, green, brown and black for earth. Green, brown and black can all be associated with soil and hence earth. Red is an obvious candidate for live or earth since it's a warning colour. Grey or yellow remains a mystery...


I agree, but although some old PVC cords are in excellent condition, many are not. It's easier to tell common people to replace old cords, than to inform them of what signs to look for.


[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 09-30-2002).]

Replacing the cord...
Myself I know enough to see when a cord is too damaged (and my father taught me darn well not to mess around with any stuff like that other than pulling the plug (in severe cases after throwing the breaker/unscrewing both H&N fuses or throwing the main GFI(present in nearly all work done mid-70ies and after) and replace it.) I've never seen a PVC cord that was damaged due to anything else than severe mechanical stress. Much different with rubber sheathing. It usually crumbles with time or gets soft. I once bought a ca. 1950ies vacuum cleaner with a cord which insulation looked and felt almost like plastiline (some soft playing and modeling mass for kids). Plus the 5m cord was spliced FOUR TIMES! The old cord got weak near the appliance, so they only left about 30 cm (1ft) of it. Then they spliced an equally long piece of PVC sheathed flat SVT (commonly used with Europlugs). Now the result was still too short. Add a 4m piece of SVT 2w+ ground. Now they lacked a plug. They took the rest of the (white) flat SVT with an Europlug and spliced the last time. Didn't even bother to tape each conductor seperately, just wrapped it back along the cord in opposite direction and gave everything one tape wrap. They even dared to show me how great it was working!
Any old radios after 1950 I've seen were fitted with 0.75 sq. mm (18 AWG) brown zip cord. (sometimes white, I've also seen flat SVT with 2 white conductors inside)
However, I've seen some rubber cords dating back to the 1940ies that are still in perfect shape (hard to tell it apart from a new one).
Fitting all second-hand appliances with new plugs? I doubt this would work here. First, second-hand is one of the worst businesses I know here. You have to look darn close what you're going to buy here! There's a reason for the proverb: "The balkan starts in Vienna!"
Second, even if somebody attempted to do this they would do it themselves and only make things worse. (The guy I told about somewere who plugged in the loose prongs was a second-hand-dealer)
Most stuff on the market is still with the original ungrounded plug, some have a Schuko plug. The later devices with zip cord almost always had a premolded contour plug which is still perfectly legal here and used for any ungrounded devices consuming more than 2.5A.

Red for ground was chosen here because it's a signal color and thus completely different to the black and grey wires. One reason I like the old color coding better and try to keep it everywhere I find it is the beautiful dark red of some old ground wires.

I suppose the logic behind the British choice of red was "red for danger," or the live/hot wire. To a Brit, the use of red for ground seems very strange, but I can just about see the association.

On neutral colors, I can understand the British choice of black. I can also see the reasoning behind the American (and other) use of white or gray. What just doesn't make sense to me is the new Euro-neutral of blue.

The green/yellow for earth here doesn't cause too much concern, as it at least contains green that most people were used to. But even 30 years after the new colors were introduced, there are still people who understand the red & black but don't know the correct way to wire brown & blue.

I've heard of the color-blindness angle before, but I've always been led to believe that the most common form of color blindness is the inability to distinguish red from green. O.K., obviously that could be a problem with the old British code, but as I understand it, to somebody with red-green color blindness both colors appear to be the same. Now, if you were color blind, knew that the three wires were different colors (red, black, green) and yet two of the three appeared to be the same color to you, wouldn't you get somebody who can distinguish the colors to help you? Would you really just guess at which wire is red and which green?

On the replacement cord issue, the Trading Standards Dept. "advice" seems to be more along the lines of forcing everybody into the new standard rather than any concern over the condition of the cord. Sure, I take the point that training the average person to recognize the hazards of a damaged or worn cord is not always easy. But then the advice continues that the replacement cord (new color code) should be installed by a suitably qualified person. Why not just suggest that said qualified person inspects the existing cord and replaces it only if necessary?

The plug angle here is also a case of bureaucracy at its extreme. The rules specify that the latest type of BS1363 (13A fused) plug be fitted. That's the one with insulating sleeves partially covering the line & neutral pins. According to Trading Standards, you can't now legally sell an appliance fitted with the older type of 13A plug.