ECN Forum Forums Technical Discussion Electrical Theory and Applications As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets

Here I go again!
F. Architects are getting better about giving out CAD files. Most are not so proprietary anymore although they do make you sign away your first born before they give you the disk! Other that that, architects have been very good at getting us the info we need.

G. They are all the same! Never return phone calls, take forever to get the required info. It doesn't seem to matter which utility, the problem is the same.

Bob,
Do you ever have a communication problem between your field personnel and your CAD operators. It seems to me that CAD people that don't really have electrical experience don't get it right the first or second time!

Nick, you're sooooo right.
We get bid plans that seem to come in 2 versions, ones that the EE has been paid by the square foot, and ones that they've been paid by the sheet.
The former seem to be barren of much info at all. They don't have half the equipment shown, and RFIs don't get answered.
The latter also seem to be barren of pertinent info, but will have gobs of "cut & paste" specs written in.
Both make the bid process a guessing game, and result in us excluding this, that and the other thing.
It's almost as if it's intentional! As if the job will go to the bidder that "misses the most things".
Remember, the engineer gets paid up front. Once they have their $$, they want to move on, and support can be nearly non-existent.


Our guys keep very accurate as-builts with regards to circuit designations. This is a big benefit to me, as I have to serve as the "pound of cure" when things go wrong, and very often will have never visited the jobsite until there is a problem...S

Hey Scott - the song you quote at the top is one of my all-time favorites. I kinda agree with Bob, maybe we should split out the design & engineering part from the as-builts topic.

Anyway, I currently work for a large public agency in Los Angeles (to remain nameless for now). In our contracts, we generally require the contractor to provide accurate as-builts in CAD format, either AutoCad or Microstation. To make this stick, we usually have a bid item right in the bid forms for as-built drawings, with a provisional bid sum stipulated, and the provisional sum is enough to ensure the drawings get done ($20K to $50K is not unusual, more for bigger contracts). In public works, if a bidder excludes anything or qualifies their bid in any way, they are considered non-responsive and are sumarily rejected.

Even at that, good accurate as-built plans are dificult to get. Plus, even after we do get them, especially for remodel work, we do not then have anyone who integrates the new as-built information into a current master set of drawings for our facilities.

I'll post on D/B later - a sore topic with me, but I'm seeing more & more of it.

Radar

Thanks everyone for the replies posted so far. Things are going in the direction I was hoping.

As mentioned by a few, it would be better to separate the topics of "As-Builts", "Design/Builds" and "Engineered Sets" to individual threads, so I will create a few new ones later.

Also as mentioned, the term "Record Drawings" is better suited (and "Legally Safe") in lieu of "As-Builts". I wasn't sure if all Members would understand the term Record Drawing - was sure that a few would but unsure if everyone would.

Note to "RADAR":

I worked as an Engineer / Project Manager / Estimator for an Electrical Contracting firm last year, which had taken on a Public Works project - and this was their first (likely last) Public Works project.
The project was a new Los Angeles Public Library branch.

When I began working for the EC, I was given this job to Manage + put out numerous fires (the job had been going for 18 months already). So many "Fires" had to be dealt with, due to the blundering of a very hard nosed, snobbish and totally unqualified + inept Field Foreman and his lack of Commercial Installations knowledge.
When I was given the job, it was approaching time for Final Commissioning and shooting for TCO.

Anyhow, the contractual requirements for Record Drawings were as you stated - compiled to a CAD format, Plot out hard copy set of velums, archive the CAD drawings to a Disk, submit velums and Disk at turn key time.
This was also verified by:

• The G.C.'s Project Manager,
• The Library's Project Manager,
• The Architect,
• The Library's Q.C. Inspector,
• The Project Manual.

When I mentioned this to my "Boss", he figured there was no need for "A Waste Of Time" to produce CAD drawings, and he would have the previously mentioned "Clown Foreman" pencil in As-Built information to "A Few Plan Pages" - then submit this to the Library people.
Not more than 2 weeks later, I get a "Nasty-Gram" E-mail from my "Boss", as he is now pissed off at me for "Not telling Him About The Required CAD As-Builts, And Allowing Clown Foreman To Submit Pencil Edited Blueline Pages Only".

Idiotic things like this occured on a daily bases at this firm, so I left in early October.

You may be familiar with the project I am referring to here! If so, feel free to "Hint" or contact me directly via E-mail at:

setelectric at pacbell dot net

As to the topic at hand:

I have seen some really good + detailed record drawings in my career.

Have also submitted some very detailed record sets, however the majority (75%) of the other sets contained the information described by Nick.

Have seen some simple / basic sets which were nice - and a few sets which were borderline Comedy (sucked!).

Now to get some more input and make a complete conclusion to this thread.

Scott35

Hey Scott - I'm not familiar with the project you reference (I don't work for the City). But I did happen to work as a foreman on the LA Central Library rehab a few years ago. Complete boondoggle - something like 4,000 to 5,000 RFI/RFC's. When we were about 85% complete, we had installed about 550,000 feet of small conduit (1" and smaller), compared to a bid quantity of 250,000 feet, and were over budget to the tune of about 30,000 man-hours on small conduit alone. (I cannot imagine having to make as-built drawings out of that mess)

Back to the topic somewhat - I remember a few years ago working as a Project manager out at the Ontario Airport (owner is City of Los Angeles), sitting in my job trailer making AutoCad record drawings myself, no help from the contractors home office. But at least I know they got done, cause I did 'em.

Scott, I'm curious - on the project you refered to, were as-builts a bid/billing item with money attached, or just a contract requirement?

Where I work now, we frequently issue the bid documents on a CD ROM as well as in hard copy. The drawings are graphics files (tif or jpeg), not cadd files. When the contract is awarded, the contractor is then provided with a set of background cadd files for use in recording their work. Naturally there is more to the record documents than the as-build plans, but that's where they start.

By the way, in our contracts, we use the term "As-Builts". In fact, we generally have a specification section entitled "As-Built Drawings and Current Status Docmnents". CSI # is 01720 (for anyone who cares). I never see the term "Record Drawings" around here.

Radar