ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

- submitted by necbuff

What on earth has happened in the bottom picture?.

2nd picture is a "cabinet" of fire alarm modules. They are just thrown in there. This is one of several panels inside a public school.

[This message has been edited by necbuff (edited 12-29-2004).]

[This message has been edited by necbuff (edited 12-29-2004).]

Sure glad that's not one of my schools. But look at the bright side, all the modules have labels on them.

Pic 1: Whiny homeowner "But I want it... it's so pretty..."


Pic 2: Apprentice alarm guy: "Hey boss... what should I do with these replacement modules?"

Journeyman: "Whaddya think? Just throw 'em in the panel we took all the old hardwire realy and lamp jobs out of. Jeez. Hurry up, then get me some coffee!"

wow what a mess does anyone know where this came from? i am sure Notifier would love to know about installs like this. this is what gives us fire alarm people a bad name with all trades. you can be sure that if one of my people did that they would be kicking cans down the road

Dstanford, not all F/A people have a bad name.

Roger

Considering some of the "Lobby Art" I've seen in high-end office buildings, this could be hung as-is.
It would probably fetch a high enough price to buy a real alarm panel.

I had to scroll down to the description to recognize it at all.

Aside from the horrid quality of workmanship in the alarm panel, I'd be concerned that the loose metal mounting plates (or are they grey plastic?) of the modules might short to some of the screw terminals on nearby modules. Or so it looks in the picture. Either a short would create a false alarm, or disable a true alarm.

[This message has been edited by wa2ise (edited 12-29-2004).]

Funny you mention that wa2ise... The alarm panel WAS showing an alarm status!

Just curious, would you guys say that Receptacle in the first picture violates 406.8(C) ?

Bill

Yes, Bill, and maybe 406.8(B)(2), but, certainly 406.8(C). "406.8(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. A receptacle shall not be installed within a bathtub or shower space."

Even guessing that there is no shower in the tub space, does an imiganary line project vertically upward from the outermost edge of the surround (or the tub/spa itself?)?

Would this be classified a wet location?

If there is no shower head is it at least a damp location?

Would 404.4 (Switches...wet locations...) apply?

Woops, I can't spell. Should be imaginary in previous post.

Second pic is just nasty!!

Are the fire alarm modules secured in place like that, or are they just piled atop one another? It sure looks like they are not secured.

Has to be something in Art. 760 (2002NEC) about that. Do not general wiring methods apply to fire alarrm circuits, too?

BP,

Personally, I would never put a switch or receptacle in the location pictured.

Playing Devil's Advocate here ... I like clear-cut rules, but we have no definition of bathtub or shower space. Where does it start?

Clearance from Pools and Hot Tubs gets measured starting at the inside walls. If that's the case here the Receptacle might just be outside the 'space'

Bill

For pic #2 ,I think I won't dare using that FA panel to "silence" the room for a show with fog/smoke/pyrotechnics. It's a total mess.

Bill, wouldn't 410-4(D) be your definition of shower/bathtub space? I would say the light in pic #1 is hanging below the 8' mark. Pic # 2 is just crazy. I can't beleive that panel is active!!

trekkie76,

I agree the chandelier shouldn't be there, no question about that. I don't think the Switch and Receptacle should be there either, but I'm just picking on words (or the lack of them) here. Article 410 is for Luminaires, not receptacles and there is no specific definition of 'Bathtub or Shower space' there either.

The area talked about in 410.4(D) is within a zone measured .... horizontally and vertically from "the top of the Bathtub rim or shower stall threshold" This doesn't seem clear to me either. I can understand where the vertical measurement starts, but not the horizontal measurement. If it was the 'outside edge' or the 'inside wall' (or similar language) it would be more specific and understandable.

For argument's sake, what do the lines in the following picture represent?




Bill

Oh, it's a BATHTUB...

From where I was looking, I thought it was a SINK with vanity and backsplash!!!

I was wondering what the big deal was about the switch until someone mentioned "bathtub".

Sven,
If that was a Sink, you'd hit your head on the light fitting when you washed your hands.

Question . Is the fire alarm finished or is this in the middle of a upgrade and will be installed properly when the job is near completeion.

Contractor; Mam I can put that there it be a violation of the code.

Homeowner; This is my house and the code doesn't apply here. put it by the tub so it is convient for me.

I am seeing this very often these days.

How, I wondered, could so many have placed the switches and receptacles over the tub?

Then I realised that the situation arose when the homeowner re-modeled, and replaced a standard tub with a wider, often "whirlpool" tub. The wider tub, and the space required for the pump, moved the edge of the tub out, under the switch/receptacle.

"If that was a Sink, you'd hit your head on the light fitting when you washed your hands."



If that was a bathtub, you'd hit your head on the light fitting when you got in or out.