ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area What's wrong with this Question?

For 10 weeks this past spring I was hired to teach a "Basic Home Wiring" class at an automotive factory(one of the big 3). The objective of this class was to impart some basic understanding of the electrical system on the homeowner so as to enable him/her to safely change a switch or receptacle or add a CATV or telephone jack.
I took the opportunity to educate the students about electrical safety and the possibility of biblical proportion catastrophe when dealing with electricity. I covered the basics in this class with the approach that it is good to know what to look for in good, safe installation practices of those tradesmen/women that they might hire to do work on their homes. When the class was completed the students had to evaluate me as to my effectiveness as an educator and the class as to how useful and informative it had been. I'm proud to say I received good reports on my educating technique but the comment I saw most often on the evaluations and the one that pleased me the most was where the question was asked:"What was the most valuable element you received from taking this class?". The most common response can be summed up in one student's reply: "Electrical wiring is best left to qualified professionals. The class has given me a new sense of respect for the electricity I take for granted in my home every day. While it is a convenience I wouldn't want to do without, I now know what a hazzard it can be if it operates in a damaged or poorly installed wiring system." 11 out of 23 students answered in a similar manner. I don't go around trying to frighten people about electricity but I do stress the dangers associated with electrical work and that getting shocked is minor compared to burning down a house and killing an entire family all because you were trying to save a few dollars.

arseegee:


The thing that gets me the questions are always directed as to making something work, hooking it up, and once that information is gathered the question never comes up, which in my opinion is the most important, what happens if it doesnt work, does the breaker keep on putting power to the device they wired, does the box become hot if the hot conductor accidently breaks or comes off the device for some unknown reason ? My question is will the circuit trip the breaker/blow the fuse if it doesnt work.
We as electricians spend an awful lot of time connecting wires that we hope will never have to carry current. How many times have we seen the grounding conductor either cut or just completely disregarded.
I never had a problem before giving advice on these subjects, but after this thread I am just going to NOT give any.
As Sparky says the big L-word keeps rearing it ugly head.
-Mark-

Mark,
One of my favorite on the job site lines is "A monkey will eventually touch the wires together and the light will come on, but that doesn't mean it's right". I use it when carpenters talks about their vast electrical knowledge.

Fred, I say good job, and thank you.

Roger

I was just reading the July issue of CEE News and it has an Article about "This Old House" which, as everyone knows, is the benchmark for the DIY instructional industry for the last 23yrs. They are coming out with a new companion show called "Ask This Old House" Hmmmm - this sounds like support from an unexpected source.


Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 07-22-2002).]

As an electrician at a factory (night gig)so I have a lot of people ask me questions. I answer very few but will offer to come by and look at it. May be selfish because the day gig is a sideline resi electric company. I am honest and have helped a few for no charge with very simple problems. But I always stress that if you are not comfortable with electricity call a PRO. My dad has always said he did not like electric work cause you can't see or smell it.

[This message has been edited by spkjpr (edited 07-22-2002).]

Pauluk,

When a foundation crew does shoddy work, the basement floods. Very few have died from flooded basements...

When the framers do shoddy work, the drywall cracks. Very few have died from cracked drywall...

When the plumbers do shoddy work, the pipes leak. Very few have died from leaky pipes...

When the painters do shoddy work, the paint peels. Very few have died from peeling paint... uh, with the exception of lead based paint...

When finish carpenters do shoddy work they get fired. Very few have died from a bad mitre cut...

When electricians do shoddy work, usually nothing happens... but occasionally, someone dies from it.

I guess that's the difference...

The mechanic argument would be a good analogy. They have a similar liability, such as customers with bad brakes and refusing to fix them... The wrenchies are responsible and liable if they drive off the lot. By law, they should insist that the customer tow the car away if they don't wish to fix the brakes there... Tough law...

</threadjack>

Even though my first post sounded tough, I get asked, as we all do, advice from time to time. A gentleman is about to tackle a service change and I've tried in vain to explain the grounding/bonding setup when dealing with a disconnect, but it looks like I'll have to show up at his place, look at his materials, place everything more-or-less where it goes in mock-up, and give him a parts list of anything missing that he'll need. I tried to explain the "grease" he'll need for the aluminum "wires" (single syllable words, please) and if one could actually hear a dumb-founded look through a cell-phone... I think I did!

How much is advice worth anyway? Say if we were to cover the expenses of the knowledge, experience, and information?

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-23-2002).]

"...He did not like electric work cause you can't see or smell it".

spkjpr; At the risk of turning a phrase around, consider this; If you CAN see or smell electric work, you know you're in serious trouble.

Just my noodling...I wonder if that means my brain is in neutral...?

Mike (mamills)

Paul,

I agree that it is a tough call and I myself am on that same fence many times. I agree that it is important to know what type of person you are speaking to (and their skill/understanding level) when asked for advice or How-To instructions (I think there is a difference). I have given advice/instruction myself many times but in a more controlled situation. In a Forum such as this you may know exactly what type of person you are responding to, and that they are very capable, but you can have no idea who else will also read it afterwards and what they will do with the information.

Now, the argument comes up that we cannot be held responsible for that situation. I draw a parallel to a situation where I am called to troubleshoot some non-working outlets and am followed about the house and watched intently by the owner and his small children. Before I put a screwdriver near an outlet to remove the cover I will ask the owner if they think the child should be watching this. Invariably, they have said NO, this is because they know how imitative and without fear children can be.

Would I be responsible if the child had done something and gotten hurt after I left? Maybe not legally, but on some level I would have felt responsible and that it could've been avoided.

[/Rant]
Bill

Virgil,

I take the point about bad painting, bad carpentry, etc. On the plumbing, I was thinking along the lines of somebody trying to install a pressurized hot-water system and not allowing for expansion, not fitting temp/pressure relief valves and so on. That has resulted in some quite nasty accidents when a cylinder finally goes kerblam. By the way, like electrical work, we have no restrictions on who can do plumbing, but the govt. did introduce a law to make it illegal to work on gas systems unless suitably certified.

Bill,
Interesting point that even if the person a response is directed to understands, somebody else reading the messages afterward might not. That's certainly how a post on a forum such as this differs from advice given face to face.

I must confess that I've sometimes had kids follow me around intently, watching everything I do, but I've not considered the aspect you mentioned. Put it down to me being obsessed by electricity since the age of about 6, I suppose.

Time for me to rant a little myself now. A few years ago I saw a "How To..." video tape in my local library which supposedly showed a complete beginner how to move a light fitting, install an extra receptacle, and so on. Out of curiosity I decided to watch the tape.

I very soon found myself questioning much of the advice given and seriously doubting whether the average homeowner would be able to follow the instructions properly.

I forget the exact details now, but one part was something along the lines of changing an existing room light to 2-way (U.S. 3-way) switching and adding a wall light. The "guidance" they gave to the wiring of the lights and switches was hard to follow, to say the least. I remember that the first time through I was totally lost as to what they were doing. I watched the section several times and still couldn't figure it out. In the end, I had to get a pencil and paper and go through the tape hitting pause every few seconds to sketch out what was being done.

Eventually I realized the way they were doing the wiring. It was all done on the assumption that the existing wiring had been done a certain way, with no allowances for the fact that any one of several methods could have been used. Anyone just blindly following their instructions, particularly on an older property, would most likely have gotten in a terrible mess.

Now if I had to watch the tape a dozen times and sketch out each step separately to figure it out, what chance would the average DIY homeowner stand?

The sort of advice given by that tape could've gotten someone into real trouble. I found the whole thing so misleading that I made a point of explaining my concerns to the librarian.