ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area What's wrong with this Question?

i know what you mean i have been around the block a couple times and was in the military there are some people out there who have the common sense of my 3yr old so yes it can be a saftey issue iam just saying that you cant judge everyone by one bad situation. and that there are people weather they have the knowledge to do the job or not need our help because they diffenetly cant afford the cost of an electrician. and i for one having 4
kids of my own. would rather give this person some help on this forum so he can fix his problem than find out he did nothing because of money and his kids died because of it. in todays society we are sometimes to concerened about ourselves to help those around us, i for one dont wont to give that impression to anyone who comes to this forum in need of help who cant afford the cost of an electrician. i do all my home work myself and help people i know and don't know who cant afford to hire someone because that is how i was raised.

jlhmaint,

It's not about money. My concerns are about people with little knowledge and no Fear. This can be a truly dangerous combination. I think that you may be missing the point that I was trying to make.

Bill

Mark,

Thanks, I haven't seen the magazine yet, it seems like I am always the last to get one.

Jlmaint,

I don't think that the situation you describe is what we are discussing here. As a matter of fact, many times these questions are coming from people that are doing electrical work for others (for hire) and that is even worse than a DIY situation.

This Forum is meant for use by the Trade and those with some training or experience. Basic How-To questions are not within it's scope and questions of this sort are usually removed (with explanation to the asker).

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 07-20-2002).]

A few years ago I was asked by a home owner, one of our city's finest and his wife sold home insurance.
Why now does my celing fan run when I turn on the range but the range don't heat up all the way?
They had hired a cabinet maker to remodel the basement. when they asked him to recomend an electricial contractor who could increase the panel size.
Well the cabinet maker replied. I have a friend who can do it a lot cheaper and he is not working now.
When I went and checked the panel all the branch circut white wires were on the breakers and the blacks were on netural bar.
So I asked the owner who did this. I then proceded to check outside for the meter, it had not been touched he changed the main panel with the main taped up and reconeced the new one. He was not even an Electrician.

ok i understand what you are saying and agree with you bill, this forum is designed for us to use in the trade not for the do it yourselfers. sounds good to me. hope i didn't make anyone mad was just adding my 2 cents.

I'd just like to add that this issue is not really about, or limited to the DIY person. There are many people out there that make a living doing things that they are not qualified to do. They put their customers in Danger and give Electricians a bad name.

A contributor to my 'Rant' Mode:

This week I was at a House where the first floor was recently done over as an Apartment for the owners elderly parent. The contractor had talked them into getting a service upgrade for whatever reason and a Kitchen was put in on the other side of the House where a Laundry room once was. The service was done by a Licensed Electrician, but the additional wiring was not. There were no additional circuits added (only 6 - 8 15A & 20A breakers in the whole panel!) No Electric Stove or Dryer in the house, they could've probably gotten by with a 60A service

The Carpenter had another 'Electrician' do all the Kitchen, Bathroom and New Laundry room wiring. The Bathroom outlet, all the Countertop (5 quads) outlets, Refridge, new wall and ceiling Lighting, the Washer, spare Freezer, Microwave, and Garage lighting all went on the original 20A Washer circuit.

These people hired someone in good faith to do this work and it took all of their savings to make it happen. It is done and they cannot afford to have the Electrical work done properly (redone) at this point. Every room would have to be patched and painted again too in the process.

It just burns me up how people can get away with things like this. I see it a lot.

Bill

I think one of the easiest calls on whether to give somebody advice is if you are in his home and can see some of his DIY wiring.

If his previous attempts are properly installed, using the correct connectors, correct cable type and size, etc. then at least it appears that he is trying to do the right thing. On the other hand if I see cable sheaths stripped way back out of the boxes, wires twisted and taped, or any of the other tell-tale signs, then I'm more careful with my replies.

(Roger, I've seen extra outlets wired with flexible cord too, sometimes with a wire size roughly equivalent to your #18 and run off a 30A fuse!)

Have any of you practiced the art of replying to a question without actually answering it directly? (Politicians are masters of this, of course! )

Somebody wants to know what size wire to use for a such-and-such motor, for example, and it's clear from his previous questions or work that he's in over his head and shouldn't be attempting the job. An answer along the lines of "Well, it's quite complex and depends on several factors, like the size of the motor, the temperature in that attic...." might just make him realize how much he doesn't understand. You've replied to his question, without actually giving him the specific answer and without making him feel that he's being patronized.

I'd like to bring up another point regarding homeowners who ask questions not because they have done or intend to do the work themselves, but because they are concerned about an existing condition or about something that somebody else has installed. In this case, I think we should certainly give the person credit for seeing something that concerns him and for trying to seek proper advice.

Those who tout for business while having no idea what they are doing are a different matter entirely. I went to a nearby house some months ago and found that somebody had installed a new main panel and ripped out the main GFI. (The GFI was required in this case, as the ground was only to a local rod.) He had left the entire house with no ground-fault protection whatsoever.

My questions revealed that the person responsible had set himself up as a "professional electrician" some years earlier, but had since gone out of business.

lol!,
Bill.....
i thought i was the forum ranter!

Anywho, a topic of much frustration here.
I would not pose our trade as a dracionian shop with secret handshakes , small lightning bolt tattoos or trade secret of the month.......no.......

We have certain obligations, as well as liabilities, that apply publicly, as well as to our overall image as tradesmen.


The saturday morning neo-phyte w/4 kids should rate no more or less than the brainsurgon here.

Myself i try to listen & reply without prejudice on the BB's,or in person.

~Steve

I recently quoted a 100 amp service upgrade for a real estate company, and gave them a generours bid.
The owner thought it was too high and new someone who new someone who did electrical work and they had him do it.
I just got another call from the same agent who told me to meet her at the property. She wanted me to quote again to fix the work that had been done by the previous owners "Electrician".
In the basement was a 30 space 100 amp panel the water line was right next to the panel, no ground clamp no jumper for the water meter. outside the service cable ran into the 60 amp meter base and was left like that no sil plate and no ground rods ... and no permit.
This was done by someone who passes himself off as an electrician. In the panel there were all 20 amp breakers didnt mater if the No.14 was fed to a 20 amp breaker it was stuck there any which way he could get them in.
The thing that Gets my blood boiling is that now the new owners have to pay to have this fixed which should have been done right the first time, and of course it has to be done yesterday.
If someone cant hire an electrician there are places where they can go to have the work done right the first time for them, for a nominal cost.
We had 5 kids and we had to work hard to put them all through school, when I finally figured out how they got here we didnt get any more.
I am sorry that cant be used as an excuse.

-Mark-

I recently had a home owner call me to wire a bathroom for them, but they couldn't wait for me to do the rough. When I got there to look at the work they had run 12 for everything and had several thin boxes probably 8c.u.)with 3 pieces of 12/2 in each, no staples on the wires, the wires going to lights did not have romex connectors and the whirlpool tub and GFI outlets were all on the same circuit used for the lights. I had to tell them that if they want me to make the connections for them, they would have to redo everything they had done. It insulted them, but they did understand it was for their safety and my liability.

Worse than homeowner wiring is the stuff I see from "handy"men. At least the homeowner is concerned with the safety. (I've got some great pictures of this)