ECN Forum Forums Photo Discussion Forums Violation Photo Forum Wooden Panel

Posted for FWW56. He'll put in the story.

Are those sheets of asbestos lining the faces of the studs???
Is the blob at the bottom of the "enclosure" a cord connector? Can you HAVE a cord-connected panelboard???

"Is the blob at the bottom of the "enclosure" a cord connector?"

Could be. It looks like a mil-spec circular power connector. They are available in in high current levels (150 amp) so they would work. I doubt it is legal, code wise.

Is anything legal on this? (It looks like the wire colors are correct, and they may be sized correctly, but other than that ...)

Two options here:
1) Rip it all out and start over
2) Run away screaming.

I am truly impressed. If nothing else, the 1936 date on the paperwork suggests this sparky's work has stod the test of time.

That very well could be asbestos sheeting lining the wood box. Good catch.

The 'blob' at the bottom is an old service entrance fitting - something we use a weatherhead for these days. You'll find this sort of thing in knob & tube installs.

The paperwork also shows fuses. I suspect that the fuse blocks were removed, and replaced with the innards from another panel.

So somebody upgraded to THIS????

C'mon, give the guy a break, he used ty-wraps!

My apartment in Richmond had a setup very similar to this: Wooden cabinet with asbestos sheets tacked inside it, knob-and-tube coming through to a set of edison-base fuses. The service was upgraded at one point and they disconnected the fuses, tied into the K&T with some Romex and ran it to the new fuse panel. So what was left was just a very large, old fashioned junction box.

The inexcusable thing here is that somebody has worked on this recently and yet couldn't do anything to improve it other than throwing in some panel guts.

-John

Looks good with the door shut!.

yeah, better with the door shut gets my vote too

Uh, yeah, it's an upgrade. How else were you supposed to get a GFCI breaker in there?

What amazes me is that the old asbestos-lined box (perfectly legal in 1923) is actually big enough for any reasonably-sized circa-1970s GE busbar assembly. Then again, the diagram shows 24 Edison fuseholders (Is that 24 circuits or 12? Fused neutrals were still common back then.), so I guess you could shoehorn it in.

I tend to think this might have been an acceptable repair at one time if the old fuseholders burned up. The thing that makes it unacceptable is that this "upgrade" was clearly motivated by the desire to add more circuits. Most of the cables seen are thermoplastic insulation, for cryin' out loud!

That blob is a legitimate fitting for the wiring method used (flexible metallic conduit). I believe it is called a monkeyface. This is what you would use when you had to transition from flex to K&T.


That all depends. If the homeowner goes ballistic at hearing the possibility of plaster being removed, you run away screaming. If they are game, you help them. That is what we are in business for.

Note the porcelain tubes projecting from the left hand wall of the box. These are no doubt why the previous installer decided to leave the original enclosure intact. Judging from the appearance of the GE equipment, this was probably done in the '60s or early '70s, before the health hazards of asbestos were well-known to the public. The installer was probably more concerned about disturbing the insulation on the K&T circuits, certainly a dicey thing if you were going to cram a factory NEMA 1 enclosure in there. But if you were to open the chases on each side of the panel, remember that it remains perfectly legal to conceal soldered and taped splices on existing K&T. A better option, of course, would be to rewire all of the K&T circuits. A talk with the AHJ would be in order before proceeding.

Fortunately, this call is more and more made easier by the fact that home inspectors recognize and note K&T when they see it, and insurance companies frequently will not issue new policies where the house is known to have K&T. These facts tend to give us more leverage with homeowners than in the past.

[This message has been edited by yaktx (edited 02-15-2007).]

I'm sorry I haven't been able to post to this earlier but here goes.

This is a 5500/6000 sf eight bedroom house built probably in the 20's. Originally wired with knob and tube and probably a huge for the time 60amp service with a main panel in the kitchen and a sub panel on the second floor.

There is evidence of at least two major upgrades in the past. The BX cable and additional wall sconces would be from somewhere in the 40's or 50's. with a bedroom converted to a master bath suite and a kitchen make over about 1988.

Apparently during the 1988 upgrades this mess was created, it is the original wooden fuse box with the innards of a moder GE 20/30 breaker panel installed. Surprisingly they managed to keep the neutrals isolated, however I don't think the twisting of all the grounds together and screwing to one small lug attached to the "monkey face" would not be the most reliable solution.
As bad as this is, the wiring within the walls that has not seen the light of day for generations is in very good condition and much of it will be retained.
The plan for this round of upgrades includes all new service equipment, new sub-panels on the second floor and garage, a major kitchen remodel (something in the $75 /$100k range), a major bathroom upgrade and misc. additions throughout the house.

This home has been vacant for several years with the current owners living out of state. Their plan is to make some upgrades and put the house on the market.

Today I replaced that mess and the results con be seen here; https://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e75/fww56/Beechwood%20Blvd%20Panel/

FRANK

Now that looks good... however, personally O'd have kept the panel door without the asbestos to turn it into a cabinet door - it's a niece piece of carpentry.

However, that picture shows how codes vary around the world: in Austria it's illegal to splice more than ONE circuit in the same junction box! Wires of other circuits can only pass through. That gave me a HUGE headache when trying to partially rewire a 1965 apartment where none of the later hacks had cared about that...

I guess if the house was that well-wired for its time, the K&T might still be in decent shape and you would be justified in leaving it alone, at least on the lighting circuits. The minority of houses I see with K&T had only one or two circuits for years, and no doubt they were overfused for much of that time. The K&T houses I see are one-story and originally had only one lighting fixture per room, and no receptacles. There will generally be receptacles added to the circuit with '50s-era romex. Attic temps routinely reach 140F around here. Rubber insulation is likely to be toasty. I realize it is not like that everywhere.

BTW, how much does asbestos abatement add to the bid? I've never had to handle that!

Largely depends on location. Some states will just tell you to handle it carefully, double-bag it and drop it off at the dump. Others immediately call for the guys in the space suits and shut down the entire place...

I know around here it's quite a bit, due to people being forced by township inspectors to replace cracked asbestos siding.

Ian A.

I know around here it's quite a bit, due to people being forced by township inspectors to replace cracked asbestos siding.

Ian A.