ECN Forum Forums Photo Discussion Forums Violation Photo Forum Earth/bonding violation (U.K.)

Thanks to Johno12345 for the following:








[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 05-26-2006).]

That last picture, where the bonding conductors are all terminated, Am I wrong or are they TWO separate blocks??? From what I see they aren't event touching, and the way its described and the way I see it, the panel located upstairs is technically NOT bonded to earth is it??

A.D

Corect, those earth blocks are totally seperate! The only earth is to the gas pipe (pre gas meter) and to the water main. It has been like this since the building was renovated in 1984. It looks like someone has positioned them like that to look like one earth block. I think we are lucky here that there have been no injuries.

It always makes me wonder because someone has done that knowingly - how can they sleep?

Anyway, it was all sorted about an hour later. we just hope out Stab-Lok panel doesnt go the way of the American ones!

Aren't Earth conductors required to be terminated in a continuous non-ferrous busbar?.

shows that when you undertake a periodic inspection report you must look closely at even the simpilist of items, I trust you have recified the terminal as this could be seriously dangerous.

If there are any boilers, pumps, or similar equipment in the building, then there was probably some sort of earth via their cord's earth conductor and back via the water and/or gas pipes.

I wouldn't have wanted to rely upon the small earth in those cords to clear a ground fault from the main panel though!

That earth bar, block is shocking, those are two separate blocks and are NOT providing any continuous earth protection.

What size is the earth here? It looks like 25 or 35 mm² .
Quite a bit of corrosion too on the RHS earth.

The polyphase meter is that a GEC E43B3B, 2 rate series, 100 Amps ?

My comment about the busbar, stems from the need to have all equipment and it's Earthed parts to be at the same potential.
This could be why it is called Equi-potential Bonding.
Considering that there is a Gas line and so forth that is supposed to be effectively Bonded and Earthed, if that happened here, some Inspector would be for the Chopping Block.
In this case of negligence I'd be the first to blow the whistle!.

The earth is 25mm and the supply is 35mm, it is 100A, not sure of the meter type. All i noted was that it was singed slightly.
There is a boiler and A/C system It used to have a commercial kitchen for the staff canteen that was all steel I think it was bonded to the spare terminal. It is the only thing we have found so far in this building and we are suprised as it all seems to have been done really well.

Are Federal Electric Stab-Lok panels OK? just imagine if they were of the no-trip kind, live kitchen and taps!

incidentally, we were logging voltage swings on a UPS from about 218V to 280V, we had the panel and supply checked and it all seems ok, I wonder if the poor earth might have confused the UPS.

Johno12345: Can you get a picture or two of that FPE panel by chance??? I would like to see how they compare to the ones over here if possible....

A.D

It must me a UK thing, but in my opinion nothing there looks safe, and to point out a fire caused by a wire being crushed....? Are most other services like this there...or am i way off?

xGROMx,
Lead sheathed cables don't tend to like being crushed.
I'm glad we don't use them cables anymore, regardless of the toxicity issue.
They were just a nuisance to work with.

Unfortunately, the service pictured above is quite typical (the ground connection issue notwithstanding). A lot of services here do tend to look as though everything was just thrown at the wall!

Click here for a typical single-phase domestic service which has had bits added over the years.

This is definitely one area in which I think a properly installed American service is much better than what is considered acceptable here.

Right on!!! those look like regular " NA " Style FPE breakers and look like they would plug in to a regular FPE panel here... The only difference I can see is the red handles ( wide NA style breakers don't have that here, and the marking for "on" and "off".. Ours actually say " ON" or "OFF"
Very cool none the less!

A.D

I did wonder about the on off thing as to me this is labelled I and 0 so in and nothing Sometimes in boards like these it is difficult to tell which way is on and which is off. The use of a arrow or green/red flag is good. This panel has a lot turned off so there is a bit of ambiguity which are off and which are on especially in low light. The panel and breaker seem very sturdy compared with dorman smith stuff. This breaker is 24mm wide and 85mm long. I dont have any 3 phase breakers though. This is rated at 415V AC 3 Phase. Maybe you can tie them together?

The trend toward "I" and "O" markings is one I dislike intensely. What was wrong with having switches and breakers labeled "On" and "Off" in plain English?

If you are trying to sell to the whole world rather than just the English speaking part then I & O make perfect sense.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

I have to admit I've never seen _any_ panel like that anywhere in Europe!

All older breaker types I've seen so far had wire jumpers instead of a load side bus, bus bars came up in the 1970s and those were mostly imported from Germany, used in big commercial buildings. Residential and small commercial installations used wire jumpers right into the 1990s.
The bus bars are all the kind known from DIN rail panels that clamp under the line side terminal screws.

Ragnar, do you mean that the breakers are arranged on a DIN rail and then pieces of cable are used to link from the main switch to all the live side of all the breakers? That seems a bit labour intensive, I could, of course got the wrong end of the stick!

I still think vertical breakers should be more clearly off or on. It is especially confusing when many breakers are off and on. Red and green flags seem a good idea to me.

I will try to get some more pics of our eclectic range of panels. All the panels I have seen have a bus bar of sorts.

I now am responsible for having a PIR done on all our factory electrics, this should yield some interesting points! The other day I found a radiator earth clamp used to tap directly off a panel bus bar without any fuses!

Johnno,
I think what Ragnar was referring to is a strip of insulated copper busbar, with forks on it, for each breaker terminal, centre-fed for best current distribution.
All DIN Rail gear here uses a similar arrangement, even for 3-phase boards.
Correct me if I've gone right away from what you were meaning, Ragnar.
Johhno,
Good point mate,
Every now and then you will get some clown that installs some new breakers upside down in a board and without looking at the writing on the breaker front can you tell, this is exacerbated by the fact that there is often poor lighting around a panel, flags would be a great idea, perhaps the same as they have on DIN Rail Surge-Diverters?.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Of course that isn't commonly done in panels with let's say 50 circuits, but in small residential panels with often no more than 4 circuits that's most common. Some very old breakers (1960s and some German 70s stuff) even allowed you to run a straight piece of bare wire from screw to screw.

One of the straight wire style setups (early 1960s):

The more Austrian style is to bend u-shaped pieces of solid wire and run them from breaker to breaker.

Seeing that "Stab Lock" has crossed the Atlantic is just eerie to me!

Here's a US version

The breakers in my picture were closely related to the infamous Zinsco "No blow" types... Schrack 10A H characteristic, that means "superfast" (H stood for household). The owner had a few shorts, and in all but one instance the 20A slow blow main fuse blew before the breaker tripped. One row of breakers if for the hots, the other are the neutrals. Only 2 wire single phase.

That Austrian panel looks like it wont fit back in! The wire looks a bit on the thin side to me. Those breakers remind me of the early plug on MCBs with the 2 buttons. I see a few of the my favourite choc block. I see you also have an old brit special - wood chip wallpaper it clings to the wall for dear life under 30 coats of paint.

There has never been a tripped breaker in the FPE panel, I am not aware of a way of testing MCBs like an RCD. I suppose fuses are good in this respect, I am not aware of a fuse which failed to open.

The American FPE panel is interesting, I have never seen a 6009A breaker seems a funny size But then again, it does say "NO" on it!
I notice that the FPE breaker has more than 1 wire in it, isnt this a violation over there? To my knowledge there is no such rule here, you regularly see several wires in 1 terminal, not just on breakers but sockets and all else.

It would have fitted I guess, but we were already replacing it when the picture was taken. All wiring is 1.5mm2, so it would have been appropriately protected by the 10A breakers if they had actually been working.
The choc blocks... on one hand they cut the feeder when the installed an RCD in a second panel next to the old one and reattached it with choc blocks. On the other hand there was no ground bus bar, so they connected all the red and yellow/green wires with a choc block.

I actually should have turned the picture 90 degrees to the left, it's sideways.

One of the breakers was missing the black "Off" button... no way to shut off without using a screw driver. It was time for that panel to go!

That stuff isn't wood chip wall paper... it's far worse! That's some kind of coarse sand or little stone chips mixed into paint! Accidentally touch the wall and kiss you skin good bye. It's going right now before we paint.
The walls are a mix of brick and solid concrete...