ECN Forum Forums Photo Discussion Forums Violation Photo Forum That's no way to treat water

Bob,
Maybe 5 times out of 10, when I see work like this, unless its left over from a previous owner/tenant with a new owner in charge; I'm not going to be talking to anyone who gives a damn about anything but "make it work, cheap!" & there obviously not going to pay for an experienced electrician to do what they want the right way. I sure no one has meant offense to you, as I'm sure your work ethic & skills are light years above what is seen here..
What I'd do in most circumstances is ask the person if they realize this & that are a shock/fire hazard.. Then I'll inform them that we should do something about the mess before any kind of "incident" occurs & then give them a price accordingly.. I've gotten better over time at people letting me at least safety off things that are of serious risk beyond just code violations.. Some of them go for the repair, & then all is better...
The other half of the time I come across this stuff is from/for people who just, amazingly, don't know any better.. People in general that Ive come across don't realize "why" electricity can cause a fire, or "how" it can kill a person beyond the obvious.. Getting into the physics of electricity just a bit seems to go quite a ways with some people & I'm guessing, intrigues, them into wondering what the right way is & why it's the right way, regardless of it just "working" another way. The people that worry me the most are the ones that DO know better & STILL do crap like this!
There's been many times I've raised my prices higher than I normally would for something, & then said "I'm also going to take care of this over here just for safety's sake" for free or close to free.. This has worked a few times also..
If a serious enough situation exists & all fails after all the explaining & teaching so to speak, I'll tell the customer to save their money for their insurance deductible... they're gonna need it!

-Randy

I think one of the things here is looking at it from an employee point of view. I worked for others for yearsand had to do the jobs I was given.

As long as what I did was safe and code-compliant,I had no qualms about doing as I was told,and did to feed my family.

Another thing is,I can understand the folks who work in a big market area turning down work like this,I probably would too.

But as I said,if I walked away from every job like this(and a lot worse)I'd be out of a job a lot,heck,I'd have to go back to the factory. And,they would get someone else to continue that hack work.

I meant no disrespect to PC by agreeing with Bob,and I hope that is understood.

It's just that some of us don't have the option of walking away if we want to stay in the electrical field.

I would like to think that if I can get in there and as Bob says establish a relationship with the customer,I can at least insure that future work will be well done,and just may be I can get them to change the bad stuff.

Maybe it's presumptious of me,but I like to think I can make a difference,and change the way things are done here,and I can only do it if I'm involved in jobs like this.

Russell

Bob
Don't feel insulted, as my post was not directed at any one person- especially someone of your stature as shown in your prior posts . I like to ramble on and you just happened to post before me.

Remember as an employee, you do not have the responsibility or liability that the owner (licensee) has. As the one who holds the liability, I would not take the chance.
Again, do you believe the owner or one responsible for this project really cares if they do not want it cleaned up, or worse maybe were responsible for letting this happen in the first place. I do not need the headache and choose not to do the work. That has been my good fortune.

Ga.sparky, I take no offence. You and anyone else here do not need mine or anyone elses consent to voice your own opinion, that is one of the great parts of this and the other forums. You are also correct in stating that the market I work in provides a ton of work - good and bad

Pierre

Obviously, coming to this as an independent EC and as an employee will put you in two very different frames of mind.

That said, if I was doing a pre-bid walk as an EC, I'd most likely include an added-on sub-total to the bid sheet to include the following work:


If the customer insists you ignore it, and you get the job for the other wiring, an exceptionally well documented description of work originally requested by customer, work suggested by EC with a list of violations/hazards, and work actually performed by EC after informing customer of said hazards would accompany any completion sheet / invoice, and be kept in personal records for many years, with pics.

C Y A is always in effect, brothers!

During and after this bid walk I sent the architect/engineers a copy of these photos and a recomended repairs list. I hoped they would add the repairs into the origional bid solication. The owner did add this to the bid and delayed the bid date.
I also found out that the well in pic 1 has collapsed and no longer has power to it.

Unfortunatly some residents in the area are sueing to stop the new well drilling so this is on hold until the court case gets resolved.

[This message has been edited by nesparky (edited 06-09-2004).]

I was at a bid a few years back that looked similar to this and i refused to bid without bringing everything up to code, well that very night there was a fire cause by the wiring, after the investigation they told me that if the owner had of wanted to they could have sued me because i did not insist that it be done and that i should have turned this into the local inspector, that because i being the professional should have known that it was not safe to leave

Dang,
If I keep agreeing with Bob, it's going to ruin our reputation, but:
Any time I go into an existing job, I expect to find non-compliance. I don't think there's a building around that I can't find a violation (or 100) in.
I've never been shy about voicing my opinion about dangerous or unsafe things I find.

Rather than shooting myself in the foot repeatedly, I make sure that the customer is aware of any hazards I find, and I'll do my work to Code.
If I don't work it this way, I think the customer will just get another "hack" to come out and screw things up some more.

I will not add anything to an already goofed up install unless I can pick it up from a point before the goof ups.

"We'll have to run a new circuit from your panel in order to do this correctly."
NOT
"This thing's a big &^$%#@*() mess. If I can't fix it all, stuff it where the Sun don't shine"

I still retain my integrity, and go to bed at night (real early), knowing that I made things better instead of worse.

Sometimes it pays off. My "thar she blows" pictures (on another thread) caused some major action when I gave the customer a copy of them.

If you can't fix it all, at least do what you can. Don't shoot yourself in the foot...S

Scott


I am glad you risked your reputation.

Your post expressed the point I was trying to get across much better than I was able to.

I understand it is different to be a business owner, I have nothing but respect for those that make the leap and go on their own.

One of the reasons respect is due is the fact you are taking risks everyday, I am not saying you should not CYA.

But IMO saying you will not work in a building that has violations is not necessary, good for your company or the customer.

I do agree documentation is a important.

JMO, Bob

Unless you designed, roughed and trimmed the building yourself, have done ALL the subsequent service-call work, and "baby-sat" the occupancy, you can never be sure there isn't a violation somewhere on the premises. As such, I'd love to adopt a "violation free workplace" but I don't think that's entirely possible in the real world.

But when it's so blatant, AND in the immediate area of where you're expected to work, you need to really CYA documentation-wise if the owner tells you to "MYOB and do what I'm paying you for", so he doesn't succeed in holding you liable for work he claims he knew nothing about after the catastrophe occurs.

Although I'm sure a jury could find one of us liable because we didn't hog-tie the SOB and fix it against his will, as least we should have more protection against criminal / AHJ charges if we can show the investigators a stack of paper and pics that prove "I told him he needed to fix A, B, & C... here's his written refusal of work"

Aside from being sultry as a jungle in a lot of subsurface equipment rooms, if any chlorine or corrosives are used in water treatment, airborne vapors will corrode electrical gear in no time. You can often hear buzzing/chattering magnetic starters with their very rusty pole faces from about 200 yards away.

[Notice in pic 3 that someone accidentally installed a ‘raintite’ A-B enclosure with deluxe driphood.]