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#106116 - 06/11/05 05:19 AM Gorgeous Service
electure Offline


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Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Quote:
What do you think about these?


NORCAL









[This message has been edited by electure (edited 06-11-2005).]
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#106117 - 06/11/05 07:43 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
screwi Offline
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Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Liverpool,England,UK
How is that fasened to the wall? - it looks as if the top cable supports it
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#106118 - 06/11/05 08:45 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
NORCAL Offline
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Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 865
I dont know how it is fastened,there are more pictures to go w/ this.
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#106119 - 06/11/05 03:01 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
screwi Offline
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Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Liverpool,England,UK
Its David copperfield at work!!!
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#106120 - 06/11/05 03:23 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
Alan Belson Offline
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Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 1803
Loc: Mayenne N. France
With his floating neutral!
Alan
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#106121 - 06/11/05 10:01 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
mxslick Offline
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Registered: 10/24/04
Posts: 803
Loc: Atomic City, ID USA
Am I imagining things or do I see three services to a residential building?!?

And what POCO in their right mind would have set the meter in that second pic? (Notice the nice new lockring and seal.)
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#106122 - 06/12/05 12:07 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
NORCAL Offline
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Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 865
Its not a resi. building, its a former 2 room church school,the POCO is PG&E.
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#106123 - 06/12/05 05:00 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
electure Offline


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Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
More from NORCAL

Quote:
Here is another one, the #2 AL going to the 50 A 2 pole C/B are coming into the panel through 1/2" romex connectors






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#106124 - 06/12/05 09:15 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
John Crighton Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 177
Loc: Southern California
And they continue on through knobs and tubes, eh?

In the upper of these two photos, there's a loose romex at the left. I'd hate to see that bare ground get bumped over onto the bus bars.
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#106125 - 06/12/05 10:29 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
CTwireman Offline
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Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 840
Loc: Connecticut, USA
Why was Zinsco so popular in California (and other western states???) Was there a manufacturing facility there?

I have never seen a piece of Zinsco equipment here in the northeast. (thankfully!)

Peter
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#106126 - 06/12/05 11:55 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
Alan Belson Offline
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Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 1803
Loc: Mayenne N. France
Do my old eyes decieve me, or has someone snipped some of the wires, ( red/black) in pic 4 in order to get them to fit?
Alan
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#106127 - 06/12/05 07:34 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
NORCAL Offline
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Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 865
If you look at a old (pre GTE Sylvania)Zinsco,it will say "Zinsco Electrical Products Los Angeles Calif."and one of those really old clay pigeon substitutes,will say "Magnetrip".

P.S. I suspect they had more national distribution after GTE bought them in the 1970s. They were very popular in apartment buildings,trailers and other structures wired by bottom feeders.
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#106128 - 06/13/05 10:15 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
mamills Offline
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Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 745
Loc: Wharton, Texas, USA
Kinda ironic...using the term "bottom feeders" when referring to Zinsco.

Mike (mamills)
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#106129 - 06/13/05 05:16 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
NJwirenut Offline
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Registered: 09/15/01
Posts: 806
Loc: Bergen County, NJ
Quote:
I have never seen a piece of Zinsco equipment here in the northeast. (thankfully!)


Unfortunately, this is compensated for by all the FPE panels we have around here....
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#106130 - 06/13/05 05:57 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
sierra electrician Offline
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 219
Loc: North Fork, CA USA
The best thing about that Zinsco Panel is: The plaster job that surrounds it. This guy cared enough to insatll metal chanel around it so he wouldnt' plaster the door shut with the new finish depth.

Rob
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#106131 - 06/13/05 07:22 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
electure Offline


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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4259
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
So, what would have been the good choice for a panel like this in the '60s?

Remember. at that time they didn't know what we know now about these problems.

And I'm no carp/fan of Zinsco or FPE, either
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#106132 - 06/13/05 09:28 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
NORCAL Offline
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Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 865
Best service in the 1960-70s IMO would be I-T-E,Cutler-Hammer,and SQ D*.


* Around here SQ D would be a BAD choice since no local support, but their resi. equipment was well built.
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#106133 - 06/15/05 04:02 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
electure Offline


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Posts: 4259
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Cutler Hammer would have been a non-choice in the '60s.
The type CH/CHB breakers weren't introduced until about '72 or '73 Even then, they were considered by many as too new to be trusted.

Sort of narrows down the field, huh?
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#106134 - 06/15/05 06:03 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
NORCAL Offline
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Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 865
The "CH" was introduced in the late 50's, the time the "CHB" came on the market I dunno.
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#106135 - 06/16/05 04:12 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
electure Offline


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#106136 - 06/16/05 04:32 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
techie Offline
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Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 246
Loc: palo alto, ca usa
How about Murray?
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#106137 - 06/16/05 05:18 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
NORCAL Offline
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Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 865
That panel is a Murray in the 2nd pic.
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#106138 - 12/15/06 02:44 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
Theelectrikid Offline
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Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 810
Loc: Levittown, PA
Quote:
Why was Zinsco so popular in California (and other western states???) Was there a manufacturing facility there?

I have never seen a piece of Zinsco equipment here in the northeast. (thankfully!)


I, of all people here, have. Coming soon to an ECN Post Near you...

Ian A.
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#106139 - 12/15/06 05:08 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
Lostazhell Offline
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Registered: 02/21/04
Posts: 1428
Loc: Bakersfield, CA (Originally Or...
I understand we have the "Z-Virus" around here in CA so bad..., but we've no shortage of FPE junk either, which if I recall correctly, comes from the crown jewel of the Garden State... Newark

PS. Wadsworth and Frank Adam are rare breeds here though...
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#106140 - 12/15/06 09:46 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
wa2ise Offline
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Registered: 11/29/02
Posts: 782
Loc: Oradell NJ USA
Turns out my father worked at Federal Pacific in Newark NJ way back in the early 50's as an accountant. He was building our house back then, and he used FPE panels for subpanels. One was a stab-lok panel, which has since been replaced by a Square D. I doubt that my father knew of any issues with stab-loks back then, as he wanted quality stuff for his house.
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#106141 - 12/19/06 01:54 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
brianl703 Offline
Member
Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 166
Loc: Manassas, VA
The meter pedestal that serves the townhouse I own is made by Zinsco (in Fredericksburg, VA). It's in the utility right-of-way and has electric meters for 5 houses in it. I'm pretty sure it's the power company's problem. They (Dominion Power) disclaimed any responsibility for it but after I got off the phone with them telling them that many of those meter pedestals/enclosures are in poor condition with missing lids and locks etc. which could allow contact to the buss bars for someone who wasn't careful, they came by and fixed all of them.

Or maybe that was just a total coincidence and they were going to do it anyway..
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#106142 - 12/19/06 06:37 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
Hemingray Offline
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Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 199
Loc: Lehigh Acres, FL
Zinsco was quite popular in Florida as well. Alot of houses near where I lived had these installed, including Zinsco MAIN discos and meter enclosures.
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#106143 - 12/19/06 06:46 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
EV607797 Offline
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Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 744
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Brian:

Where do you live in Fred Vegas? I live in the Salem Fields area and commute to Lorton.

My best friend is an operations manager for Dominion and he has told me about those Zinsco pedestals. I saw them years ago in Springfield, but VEPCO at the time took most of them out.

If they are giving you a hard time, let me know and I can pull a few strings. PM me over at Tech Talk if interested.

Back to the matter at hand, we rarely see FPE or Zinsco around here. I used to work for a service company and we were required to keep basically every size and brand of breakers on the truck. I can honestly say that in four years, I only encounterd a dozen Zinsco panels but plenty of FPE's. Seems like most are gone now.

I do have a question about the first pic though. Does the mast go inside the wall for the right-hand service? That would never fly around here, not to mention a flush-mount meter base. An outdoor panel is almost never done unless there's no other choice and still never integrated with the meter base. POCO gives us the meter base; we supply our own panel and the conduit/cable to connect them. They do the upper half (SE cable and drop) or the lower half on underground (conduit). I guess we have it made here.
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#106144 - 12/19/06 09:18 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
Lostazhell Offline
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Registered: 02/21/04
Posts: 1428
Loc: Bakersfield, CA (Originally Or...
The first pic is a good example of what California services tend to look like. (minus the extra riser on the roof)

The left being a surface mount, the right being a semi-flush mount (yes, the riser is in the wall, using RMC)

The first time I saw an east coast service, I was kinda shocked as well SE-R cable doesn't happen here in CA,
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#106145 - 12/19/06 10:21 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
NORCAL Offline
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Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 865
Have never seen SE cable as being allowed in the PG&E Greenbook.
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#106146 - 12/20/06 08:29 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
EV607797 Offline
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Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 744
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA, USA
It's the complete opposite here; you really only see masts for services if the building isn't tall enough to maintain clearance. It's perfectly acceptable here to attach the drop to the building if clearances can be maintained.

Then again, most services here are underground, at least for the past 40 years or so. I guess the mast requirement in California has something to do with earthquake issues?
_________________________
---Ed---

"But the guy at Home Depot said it would work."
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#106147 - 12/20/06 09:00 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
brianl703 Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 166
Loc: Manassas, VA
I actually live in Manassas, Va--the townhouse in Fredericksburg,Va is in Olde Greenwich. I rent it out to my brother.

Interesting that VEPCO saw fit to get rid of those awful pedestals in Springfield but not in Fredericksburg.

What did they end up replacing them with? I looked on a number of websites and it doesn't appear that anyone makes a multi-meter pedestal like that anymore.

They're in really bad shape, being over 30 years old. Let's just say that the meter seal did not need to be cut in order to remove the meter to turn off the power to do my panel upgrade!!!


[This message has been edited by brianl703 (edited 12-21-2006).]
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#106148 - 12/21/06 06:58 AM Re: Gorgeous Service
electure Offline


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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4259
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Quote:
...most services here are underground, at least for the past 40 years or so. I guess the mast requirement in California has something to do with earthquake issues?


Not really the mast/earthquake issue, but maybe a little insight:

Overhead service in SoCA is pretty much limited to existing urban areas and rural areas. Anything in a new area is underground. Utilities are in a continuous process of replacing OH sytems and putting them UG. Even a OH service replacement in most areas will be required to have the capability for future underground feed, or might be required to change from OH to a UG lateral to an existing pole. The idea is to NOT do what was done in a couple of areas in the mid/late '70s, when UG started to become the norm.



Our conditions and history are different here than in most other areas. We don't have the issues of ice on OH lines, and lightning is a rarity. OH utilities and service were a natural for us when the place built up like a wildfire. Nobody really realized the magnitude of what was to come. By the time the smoke cleared, there was an OH infrastructure. Great, until someone looked up.

Putting the power and other utilities UG in OH districts is more a matter (besides funding) of disruption to roads and the like than the physical relocation itself.
The effect is somewhat like putting a shovel into an anthill.
There's no heaves or frost line to contend with, so minimum cover requirements up to 35KV can be as little as 30".
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#106149 - 12/21/06 05:01 PM Re: Gorgeous Service
mxslick Offline
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Registered: 10/24/04
Posts: 803
Loc: Atomic City, ID USA
Re the pic in electure's post:

I've seen a lot of those "flying gutters" to convert the OH to UG.

I've also seen the remains of a few buildings (and services) when the top of that gutter rots off or is left off..and a bit of rain and watch the fireworks begin!!
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#213178 - 03/27/14 12:56 PM Re: Gorgeous Service [Re: electure]
HotLine1 Offline


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Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6778
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
bump
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John
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#213179 - 03/27/14 12:59 PM Re: Gorgeous Service [Re: electure]
HotLine1 Offline


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Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6778
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
RE: Electures pic above.

Is this still an approved method of OH to UG conversion. And are you still allowed to have partially recessed meter pans/stacks??
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#213183 - 03/27/14 07:43 PM Re: Gorgeous Service [Re: electure]
electure Offline


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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4259
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Boy, this is an oldie smile

I haven't seen one done like this since I took the photo, so I don't know the answer. It would fall under the POCO's rules. It was fairly common during the '70s and early 80's, but just in a few areas.


The semi-flush (partially recessed) meters, and panel boards are the norm here. There are nailing flanges meant to be nailed directly to the studs.



The photo is of a combination Meter, Main, and Panelboard.


laugh Yes, we have have the service masts run through the structure. They are usually GRC or IMC, occasionally EMT.
SE cable is unheard of here. I've personally never seen a piece of it.



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#213231 - 03/31/14 07:06 AM Re: Gorgeous Service [Re: electure]
harold endean Offline
Member
Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2233
Loc: Boonton, NJ
CT,

Here in northern NJ I used to see Zinsco quite a bit. They also used ITE, FPE and Murray, and has anyone seen a Wadsworth? ( I believe that is how it was spelled)

I believe that most EC's around here used what ever they could to keep the costs down and win the bids.
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#213233 - 03/31/14 08:02 AM Re: Gorgeous Service [Re: electure]
HotLine1 Offline


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Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6778
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Another walk down memory lane...
Yes, Wadsworth.

Also, good old Bulldog Push-a-Matics
Bryant was around, and Challenger
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#213478 - 05/19/14 01:02 PM Re: Gorgeous Service [Re: electure]
Lostazhell Offline
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Registered: 02/21/04
Posts: 1428
Loc: Bakersfield, CA (Originally Or...
I've only seen Wadsworth panels twice, and once was on a cabin Big Bear, CA wayyy up in the mountains. I found it after we inadvertently plugged 2 space heaters into the same circuit. Breaker never tripped, but made a hell of a buzzing sound after a while.

Bulldog/Pushmatic is fairly common around CA in installs from the 50's/60's (The house I grew up in had Pushmatics and was built in 1958).
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#213479 - 05/19/14 06:29 PM Re: Gorgeous Service [Re: electure]
LarryC Offline
Member
Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 780
Loc: Winchester, NH, US
The current house in NH has a Pushmatic breaker panel. I believe they are fairly prevalent around here in the older structures. You also see a number of dual meters on single family houses. I believe these are leftovers from Day/Night services. The second meter socket is usually blanked off.
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#213486 - 05/22/14 07:05 PM Re: Gorgeous Service [Re: electure]
HotLine1 Offline


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Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6778
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
There are still a few SFDs that have the two meter setup, from way back. Some were setup for off peak electric water heaters.

All that I have seen, the second meter pan is blanked off.

Next time I come upon one, I'll get a pic.
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John
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