ECN Forum Forums Photo Discussion Forums Violation Photo Forum What's Wrong Here?

So, what do you do when you need to add a cicuit to a panel and the neutral bar is completely jammed with wires? You double up, because 95% of the time replacing the neutral bar is out of the question. As long as the wires are both the same size, there should be no problem.

Of course, where there are plenty of empty lugs available, there is no reason to double up.

CT :
If the neutral bar is filled, why not add a small 'ground bar kit', and bond it to the old neutral buss ? Giving a few exta spaces for additional circuits.
I usually use Siemens and they used to give neutral buss on either side of their panels, I think there were 22 on the 20 space panels or a total of 42 neutral holes. On their specs in the panel they clearly say (1) neutral per terminal but egc's can be doubled up on and they left plenty of them to do it.
Friday I picked up a ' New' Siemens Panel which was their new version and they had cut the bus in half 14 on both sides now. I guess they thought the extra space was a waste, just wish they had left it alone. The old arrangement was much better.
-Mark

motor-T-

Thats an excellent idea. My comment was directed towards those situations when time and/or money are tight and the customer isn't willing to pay for the upgrade. I'm all for improving safety when it's practical. It would be nice to fix every violation we see but we also live in the real world...

Working in older panels that are totally filled can be a real nightmare somtimes.....

Panels that are in compliance with the UL product standard for Panelboards are required to have one neutral termination space for each breaker space. They are not required to have an EGC terminal bar and most of the time, in a new panel, where neutrals are doubled up, it is because the contractor used the neutral bar for EGCs. This in itself is not a violation at the service panel, but it becomes a violation when you double up a neutral.
Don(resqcapt19)

Wow,

I didn't mean to cause such a stir. However I thought that I was the only one who saw that on the label of the panel. Most contractors think that the label will allow 2 neutrals. There was an article in E.C.& M. and also in the IAEI magazine in which both magazines also say, 1 neutral per terminal. I am glad it is now written in the NEC. This way I have another code section with which to quote from.

Too bad I don't have a digital camera yet...
At least the wires are on the right bus; I recently found a sub-panel that had all the white wires going to the ground bus, while the neutral bus (which had a beautifully marked white feeder attached to it) was completely unused!

John,
Take a regular picture and then use a scanner to scan it in. If you do not have a scanner I am sure you know someone who does. I would like to see that.
Scott

Has anyone delt with a T&B no main panel yet if you use romex there is not enough termanals for ether the grounds or the neutrals after you split the two busses to isolate them as required, you have to add a ground buss kit which I think it should already have. to stop people from doing just this